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  #41  
Old 11-24-2007, 12:06 AM
Bob ofQF Bob ofQF is offline
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I just recieved one of the Mouser electronics connectors.

I also have a Griffin dock.

I _thought_ it would be a simple job, but there are some resisters and capacitors on the Griffin doc, so I must decipher what those do, before continuing.

*sigh*

I have a Sandisk car-cord, to provide the power, and I will be using it's plug to decipher the requisite power pins.

I'll match the pins used on the power dongle's plug. It was not fully populated with pins, which is why I ordered the mouser plug.

I had wanted to add a simple 3.5mm stereo plug to the car-cord power adapter, so that one-plug, and I was hooked up in the car.

But, there's only 2 capacitors and 2 resistors to figure out. Alas, they are surface-mount, and I cannot decipher their values yet.

It seems I must figure out what the tiny numbers mean-- they seem to be part numbers, instead of farad and ohm values. *sigh*

Anyone have experience with surface-mount devices?
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  #42  
Old 11-24-2007, 04:05 PM
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A $5 multimeter will tell you their values.
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  #43  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob ofQF View Post

It seems I must figure out what the tiny numbers mean-- they seem to be part numbers, instead of farad and ohm values. *sigh*

Anyone have experience with surface-mount devices?
The first two or 3 digits are the value and the last is the multiplier.
A 243 mark on a resistor would be 24K ohms(24,000) or 4751 = 4.75K ohms.

Capacitors would take a google search to find out, it is a code associated with a value. Most of the time there is nothing on them. Good luck.

Food for thought;
The sansa, ipod and Zen Vision family all use the same connector. The DD1 series, if you can find the 70 degree angle connector get it. That works great for a dock, I was able to sample some from a salesman. Also Digikey now sells that part.
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  #44  
Old 12-02-2007, 05:56 PM
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Hey guys!! This might help or encourage someone to to finally cipher the pinout. Apparently the true line out exists. check out this link http://www.imjosh.com/?p=616
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2007, 03:06 AM
Bob ofQF Bob ofQF is offline
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Been too busy to follow up on this project.

Thanks, shoefly2k for the tips on how to read the resistors. A digital multimeter may or may not work, depending on how it's terminated, but I may try that for the resistors.

As for the caps, they are large enough to read, but the brand is unknown, and therefore the cross-reference between the numbers and the actual values is unknown, too. *sigh*

I strongly suspect that both the resistors and the caps are needed to "switch on" the outputs on the sansa.

I may just try a direct-wire, and see what happens-- it could be that the resistance of an actual "live" connection is enough to switch on the sansa.

The extra components seem to be in parallel anyway.... they may just be noise filters.

I'm planning on modifying an existing car charger I already own, so that the power connetors are already "done" I just need to solder to the new, fully populated connector from the one on the charger (which _only_ has the power lines in the connector-- none of the rest are present).

Will post here, my results.
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob ofQF View Post
Been too busy to follow up on this project.

Thanks, shoefly2k for the tips on how to read the resistors. A digital multimeter may or may not work, depending on how it's terminated, but I may try that for the resistors.

As for the caps, they are large enough to read, but the brand is unknown, and therefore the cross-reference between the numbers and the actual values is unknown, too. *sigh*

I strongly suspect that both the resistors and the caps are needed to "switch on" the outputs on the sansa.

I may just try a direct-wire, and see what happens-- it could be that the resistance of an actual "live" connection is enough to switch on the sansa.

The extra components seem to be in parallel anyway.... they may just be noise filters.

I'm planning on modifying an existing car charger I already own, so that the power connetors are already "done" I just need to solder to the new, fully populated connector from the one on the charger (which _only_ has the power lines in the connector-- none of the rest are present).

Will post here, my results.
What were your results?
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  #47  
Old 12-11-2007, 07:53 AM
Daniel_e200 Daniel_e200 is offline
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Just yor you information:

If you use the alternative RockBox firmware, audiooutput is enabled by default. (Or maybe they just dont know/care how to disable it initially).

I just build/modded the delivered USB-cable and added a audio-out cable, so i can use the USB cable for charging and the audio out pluged into my aux in in my car-radio.

I used this two pics as reference -> http://jacobnwendy.com/sansa/ (Thx to that forum, and the one who put them up). Just connect the two cables labled "R" (right) and "L" (left) and "G" (ground) to a 3.5mm jack and voila.

If i boot up with the default firmware, i have nearly no output on these pins - with my scope at the maximum y-gain i can see some signs of the audiosignal - so it is really switched off with an analog-switch, and all i see is the signal which goes over the "off-resistance" of the switch (ie. crosstalk).

So to enable it with the orginal firmware you definitly need "help" from the CPU. So it is not (as someone speculated before) possible, to toggle the analog switch directly by setting one pin to gnd or vcc.

(By the way: i tried to connect a 47k resistor according to the two pictures: nothing happend, also tried to connect the GND to the other pins as seen on them: also no result... dont know how the firmware determines the external docks...)

CU
Daniel
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  #48  
Old 12-11-2007, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_e200 View Post
Just yor you information:

If you use the alternative RockBox firmware, audiooutput is enabled by default. (Or maybe they just dont know/care how to disable it initially).

I just build/modded the delivered USB-cable and added a audio-out cable, so i can use the USB cable for charging and the audio out pluged into my aux in in my car-radio.

I used this two pics as reference -> http://jacobnwendy.com/sansa/ (Thx to that forum, and the one who put them up). Just connect the two cables labled "R" (right) and "L" (left) and "G" (ground) to a 3.5mm jack and voila.

If i boot up with the default firmware, i have nearly no output on these pins - with my scope at the maximum y-gain i can see some signs of the audiosignal - so it is really switched off with an analog-switch, and all i see is the signal which goes over the "off-resistance" of the switch (ie. crosstalk).

So to enable it with the orginal firmware you definitly need "help" from the CPU. So it is not (as someone speculated before) possible, to toggle the analog switch directly by setting one pin to gnd or vcc.

(By the way: i tried to connect a 47k resistor according to the two pictures: nothing happend, also tried to connect the GND to the other pins as seen on them: also no result... dont know how the firmware determines the external docks...)

CU
Daniel

Very cool. So, in short, if I use RockBox I can get an AudioOut on my Sansa e260. Also, to take advantage of it I need to rig up the Sansa USB cable to handle the AudioOut correct?

Any chance you have photos of your Sansa USB cable and your new wiring so I can use what you did to modify mine?

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  #49  
Old 12-11-2007, 11:37 AM
Daniel_e200 Daniel_e200 is offline
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Of course you have somehow to modify the plug - or at least buy a bare plug for the sansa and wire the usb and audio...

To rewire a existing USB plug you have three options:
*) leave the usb cable untouched and add a second, modify the housing of the plug to route a second cable for the aux.out out of it. (this is what i have done)... It is of course a bit tricky, but with some soldering experience and a dremel youll quickly find your way.

*) If you have a second usb-cable and only need this for your car/stereo.., you can rewire the D+/D- cables from the usb to the audio-pins. Than you can charge the device and get aux.out over only one cable. Just build a special USB-socket which provides 5V on the power-pins and takes audio from the Data pins and maybe route them to a 3.5mm jack.

*) replace the USB cable with an (at least) 6-wire cable and connect it to the power-pins, usb-data and audio pins... On the other side split it and mount one usb connector and a 3.5mm jack. Now you have all in one cable, and full functionallity.

I have figured out the pinout from the two pic posted on this thread (i mentioned the link earlier)

1 & 2... red/+5V
3 & 6... blk/gnd
5 ....... white/USB data
4 ....... green/USB data
28 ...... left audio out
27 ...... right audio out

sorry, i have not made any pics while building the connector - and now i have it hotglued together (bec. i had to dremel some clips away).

regards
Daniel
Attached Images
File Type: jpg web_img_2550.jpg (38.8 KB, 308 views)
File Type: jpg web_img_2553.jpg (22.1 KB, 293 views)
File Type: jpg web_img_2554.jpg (23.1 KB, 210 views)

Last edited by Daniel_e200; 12-11-2007 at 11:46 AM. Reason: pic added
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  #50  
Old 12-12-2007, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_e200 View Post
Of course you have somehow to modify the plug - or at least buy a bare plug for the sansa and wire the usb and audio...

To rewire a existing USB plug you have three options:
*) leave the usb cable untouched and add a second, modify the housing of the plug to route a second cable for the aux.out out of it. (this is what i have done)... It is of course a bit tricky, but with some soldering experience and a dremel youll quickly find your way.

*) If you have a second usb-cable and only need this for your car/stereo.., you can rewire the D+/D- cables from the usb to the audio-pins. Than you can charge the device and get aux.out over only one cable. Just build a special USB-socket which provides 5V on the power-pins and takes audio from the Data pins and maybe route them to a 3.5mm jack.

*) replace the USB cable with an (at least) 6-wire cable and connect it to the power-pins, usb-data and audio pins... On the other side split it and mount one usb connector and a 3.5mm jack. Now you have all in one cable, and full functionallity.

I have figured out the pinout from the two pic posted on this thread (i mentioned the link earlier)

1 & 2... red/+5V
3 & 6... blk/gnd
5 ....... white/USB data
4 ....... green/USB data
28 ...... left audio out
27 ...... right audio out

sorry, i have not made any pics while building the connector - and now i have it hotglued together (bec. i had to dremel some clips away).

regards
Daniel
So it looks like you've made the same cable that I'm trying to make. Except that I don't need the USB end (have another Sansa data/USB cable). You plug your 1/8" jack into your car charger right?

By the way nice job and attaching the cables!

I have green, white, red and black wires coming from the Sansa cable. On the 3/32" jack cable I have it has a green wire and a black wire. Would you say that I could simply not use the green and white from the Sansa cable and wire the red and black from the Sansa to the green and black on the 3/32" adapter? Do I pair the blacks together and the green and red?

Also, do I need to use anything to terminate the green/white wires on the Sansa or simply trim them back. Been reading some info on this but have no idea if this is necessary to terminate the green/white wires so I'm confused here.

Here's a photos of what I have:
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  #51  
Old 12-12-2007, 12:36 PM
Daniel_e200 Daniel_e200 is offline
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okay...

so you going to build the cable i described in my second point. (one cable out of the e200-plug, no USB-data connection possible, auido over the usb-data lines)

You have to have _three_ wires coming from you 3.5mm plug - mybe you have cut the shielding - or the green and black wires are actually coax-cables and have a own shielding. The shielding is connected with the ground contact of the plug.

*)First you have to open the sansa plug (sharp knife, on the front side you can pull the cage of plug open).
*)One part of the metal shielding can be removed, the other is connected to the shield of the cable. Just bend it a bit away.
*=Locate the USB-Data cables (green, white) - they should go to the pins 5 & 4.
*)Desolder them and
*)solder them onto the Audio out pins (28,27) - which to where is not that important - you only will swap left/right-channels.
*)Close the connector again.


So, connections you have to make:

The two "ex-data-now-audio" wires go to the green and black wires of the 3.5 plug. And the black wire from the e200 go to the ground (shield!) of the 3.5mm plug.

Additional you can solder a second cable to the ground and the red wire (from the e200) and provide a +5V input to charge the device.

Happy wireing!
Daniel
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  #52  
Old 12-12-2007, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_e200 View Post
okay...

so you going to build the cable i described in my second point. (one cable out of the e200-plug, no USB-data connection possible, auido over the usb-data lines)

You have to have _three_ wires coming from you 3.5mm plug - mybe you have cut the shielding - or the green and black wires are actually coax-cables and have a own shielding. The shielding is connected with the ground contact of the plug.

*)First you have to open the sansa plug (sharp knife, on the front side you can pull the cage of plug open).
*)One part of the metal shielding can be removed, the other is connected to the shield of the cable. Just bend it a bit away.
*=Locate the USB-Data cables (green, white) - they should go to the pins 5 & 4.
*)Desolder them and
*)solder them onto the Audio out pins (28,27) - which to where is not that important - you only will swap left/right-channels.
*)Close the connector again.


So, connections you have to make:

The two "ex-data-now-audio" wires go to the green and black wires of the 3.5 plug. And the black wire from the e200 go to the ground (shield!) of the 3.5mm plug.

Additional you can solder a second cable to the ground and the red wire (from the e200) and provide a +5V input to charge the device.

Happy wireing!
Daniel
Maybe I'm missing something obvious here. But:

I only want to be able to use this cable I'm making to charge my Sansa e270. I'm confused by all the instructions and why I would bother with the data cables. The jack that I'm using is a 3/32" jack. This jack plugs into my cell phone charger. This charger has interchangeable pieces that already allows me to swap between the connector for my cell phone, another for my blue tooth headset. Now I want to make a another cable that allows me to plug in my Sansa to charge it.

On the cable I'm adapting to attach to the Sansa cable it doesn't appear to have any shielding. Just two wires encased by plastic, or whatever, and then encased by an outer black heavier plastic/rubber stuff.

I've added an additional photo. One of this charger I'm talking about that may help. Also, I just bought another one of these chargers kits with the adapters so I could use one of the patch cords to build my Sansa cable for charging.
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  #53  
Old 12-13-2007, 01:43 AM
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So has anyone figured out how to switch on the connector line out yet? I do have experience with smd components and an o-scope but I havent yet purchased a dock to look at. Maybe BobofQF could post pics of the griffin dock internals? The imjosh pics didnt show enough to be useful.
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  #54  
Old 12-13-2007, 04:23 AM
Daniel_e200 Daniel_e200 is offline
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ah... only chargeing... just say it before

(the plug you are using is usually for audio...)

plug this plug into your charger - measure which wire is plus which is minus - and the voltage should be 5V.

Connect the plus wire with red from the e200 and minus with the black from e200... The data cables (green/white) dont have to be terminated or anything special - just watch that they dont touch (contact) any other wire.

Thats it...
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  #55  
Old 12-13-2007, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_e200 View Post
ah... only chargeing... just say it before

(the plug you are using is usually for audio...)

plug this plug into your charger - measure which wire is plus which is minus - and the voltage should be 5V.

Connect the plus wire with red from the e200 and minus with the black from e200... The data cables (green/white) dont have to be terminated or anything special - just watch that they dont touch (contact) any other wire.

Thats it...
My bad. I started another thread to get this answer and ended up in this one so I forgot to mention it's only for charging in this thread.

I have a digital multimeter. How can I use it to determine which is negative and which is positive on the car charger end (the green and black wires).
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  #56  
Old 12-14-2007, 11:04 AM
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Daniel_e200... thanks for your help.

I figured out how to use the digital mulitmeter. As it turns out the green/black wires on the cellphone charger are:

green - negative
black - hot

Soldered the wires and used heat shrink tube. Looks pretty decent actually. Tested it in the car and it works fine. The charger has a fuse inline as well.
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  #57  
Old 12-15-2007, 03:06 AM
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I picked up a griffin dock on clearance for $5 at best buy and traced all the connections:

1 - power
2 - power
3 - ground
4 - usb d+
5 - usb d-
6 - ground
7 - power via 47k resistor
13 - ground
18 - ground
20 - ground
27 - audio tip
28 - audio ring
29 - audio barrel

additionally, the audio channels are run through a 22uf/100kohm rc network. this tells me that the connector audio out isnt true line level and they are faking it.

it appears the audio out is turned on by bringing pin 7 high. I think the resistor just serves as a current limiter.
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  #58  
Old 12-16-2007, 10:42 AM
Pennhaven Pennhaven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rox View Post
I picked up a griffin dock on clearance for $5 at best buy and traced all the connections:...additionally, the audio channels are run through a 22uf/100kohm rc network. this tells me that the connector audio out isnt true line level and they are faking it...
Thanks for posting your research. My knowledge of circuits is fairly meager, so maybe you could tell me how you might recommend changing the values of that network to increase the "line" level? I am using my Sansa and Griffin dock with Rockbox, and even with the volume at maximum ("+6dB") the levels are still lower, going into my receiver's aux inputs, than I experience with any other device I have connected to it. An additonal 10 or 15dB would be about right with the volume at max (or an additional ~50dB with the volume control at -30dB).
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  #59  
Old 12-18-2007, 04:47 PM
Daniel_e200 Daniel_e200 is offline
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I have tried exactly the same pinout as you described - i got that from the two pictures posted on this thread. The 47k is definitly a pull up resistor, which says the sansa, there is a Audio-capable plug docked. But i was not able to measure any output at pin 27..29


Quote:
additionally, the audio channels are run through a 22uf/100kohm rc network. this tells me that the connector audio out isnt true line level and they are faking it.
Retrospective i can imagin that there maybe must also be a load on the audio-lines, so that output is switched on. And the resistores are for this purpose.

As for the capacitores: i guess they are in series, or? Then these are just DC-blocking capacitors, as most sounddecoders have no real DC-free output, and use a ghost-gnd.

But keep in mind: passive components can only decrese the signal level... so its not a line-level adaptation.
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  #60  
Old 12-19-2007, 01:55 AM
affordable_quality_audio affordable_quality_audio is offline
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OK guys here are the missing bits of info you have needed:

1) Pin 27=Audio Out Right
Pin 28=Audio Out Left
Pin 29=Audio Out Common
These outputs are NOT decoupled on the Sansa PCB, that is the reason for the DC blocking capacitors.

2) These audio outputs ONLY have an audio signal on them when pin 7 is pulled high (47K resistor to 5VDC). Note.....and here is the big one.....that the 5VDC MUST be supplied externally! None of the pins on the Sansa outputs 5VDC to use for this. These outputs are "activated" by a analog switch on the main PCB.

3) The Rockbox firmware activates the analog switch at all time, the Sandisk firmware does not.

4) Ironically the cheaper models (C240, etc.) do not require the external 5VDC for audio output. I suspect that the Sansa Connect and Sansa View also do not require it but I have not been able to verify.
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