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  #1  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:39 AM
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Jamesmoo2090 Jamesmoo2090 is offline
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Default forgive me creative... for I have sinned

So my zen vision m died... hard drive, clicking, no read... the works.

I tried looking into a replacement drive... but it was work beyond me, not to mention, everytime I look on the forums there is not a concrete answer... something works for some people, some others something else works... not to mention trying to find the right drive connector.

So what were my options?... a zen xfi, awesome player... but $250 for a 32 gigs....wtf?

Zune 120gb? I bought one...and returned it 10 days later...man, where do i begin...
-software: everything pretty much revolves around syncing forlders and doing everything everything for you, which DOES NOT mean doing what 'you' want it to dou, you cant just drag and drop to the player, you must drag to a "collection" which then goes to the player...which i HATE, if you have used the Zen VM you understand that the zen v explorer its awesome how its drag and drop and gives you total manual control, you can do exactly what you need without any hoops... unlike the zune.
-screen: videos look like $#!t , the screen sucks!!
-control: the touch button thingy its @$$inine

...so i have gone to the dark side and bought an ipod 120gb, the screen is awesome, you can even read subtitles just fine which for a screen that size says something, and the software, itunes not the best, but there is plenty of 3rd party.

but this post is NOT about how much better the iPod is... because is not.. DARN YOU CREATIVE!!! if you make a 120gb hard drive player, i would be the first in line to buy it!!! why, why, why?
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:51 AM
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well, where do i begin?

$250 for 32gigs is because it's flash. You know that problem you had with the Vision M? You wouldn't be having it with a flash player. So keep that in mind.

The Zune? Great player. You DO have control of what syncs because you have control of whats in those folders and which folders you choose to sync. If you hate the Zune software, how can you like Itunes? They are practically one and the same. The screen, 100x better than the iPod, so I don't know what your beef is there. The touch pad is not for everyone. But you could have turned the touch off and used it as a 4 way D-pad but since you used the touch interface on the Vision M, i would think it wouldn't be a hard jump for you to make to the Zune.

HDs are going the way of the the dinosaurs...extinct. Soon, once flash reaches 80gb and above, you'll almost never see a HD in a portable audio player again...
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:05 AM
musichound musichound is offline
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@ Jamesmoo2090
I am surprised you don't like the Zune's screen. It's larger than the Classic and video should play better on it.

@ sumx4182
The main difference difference between the Zune software and iTunes is that with iTUnes it can be configured to manually manage the music by drag and drop. There are two settings for this in iTUnes, which are as follows: (Wording is not precise)
Manually manage music
Configure iPod to act as an external hard drive.

To the best of my knowledge I think the Zune software offers autosync as the only option, unless the Windows registry is hacked.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:25 PM
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@sumx4182: the ZVM was my first high capacity mp3 player and it got me addicted to having shows and music all at once, but still i wished it had more capacity, so the x-fi for its price and capacity is a no deal since i can get something with 4 times as much capacity for the same price... its like cash vs debit card: if you "only" carry cash, and you want to buy something but dont have the money with you, you have to go to the bank to withdraw, with debit card... its all there and just a swipe away

as far as the zune screen, bigger does not mean better, subtitles, even though the screen is bigger, were harder to read, not to mention the colors to me looked sort of washed out. on the ipod classic, because of its size, you might think they would also be hard to read... but they are clear as day, even though the text is small, and the color is vibrant like the ZVM.

the zune software... man!! i have the x-files, all ~250 episodes, they are all in one folder and numbered. so you set up the sync folder to be the x-files, ok thats fine, all episodes go to the zune on sync. but lets say you want only episodes 1 to 100, you HAVE to move the remaining 150 to another folder to make that happen (or temporarilly copy 100 episodes to another folder, and sync there), i find that anoying.... and yeah, it is totally awesome what happens when the zune syncs with empty temp folder!!!

also, the zune handles video sorting in the dumbest way possible... in the ZVM you can create a folders and thus organize your videos, on the ipod its through playlists.... on the zune... they all go on the same folder!!! i loaded 300+ videos on the zune... and then had to scroll through them to find something!!!


as far as flash vs hard drive, who cares which is it so long as you get the most for your money.... $250 for 32gb flash or $250 for 120gb HD... you tell me.
SSD like the one on the eeepc has a write cycle in the 100,000, and the flash on mp3 players, im willing to bet, its the cheap one with write cycles in the 10,000... what does that mean for a mp3 player? i think if you are a heavey user; loading and removing lots of videos and music, you might kill it in 2 to 3 years... it depends if you are the sort of person that uses something until it dies, or the one that buys a new one every 2 years.

Last edited by Jamesmoo2090; 11-12-2008 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:38 PM
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write cycles are grossly underestimated IMHO so that if the SSD fails, they can claim that the write cycle limit was reached. I see no reason to suspect that with proper treatment, they shouldn't last well beyond the numbers spec'd out. But like i said, if you wanna talk bang for your buck, you could drop that hard drive one time and have it fail. That's all it takes. So even 2 or 3 years of SSD is better than possibly 2 or 3 days of HD. Yes, i've seen it happen. One drop with the HD reading or writing at the time and you have a failure. I've also seen people drop HDs numerous times with no troubles. But I think the security of SSD is what keeps people coming back. If you have to buy two of those 120gb players in the time that you own one SSD player, I'd say you answered your own "bang for buck" problem.

As for the zune software, I sync everything, so I hardly worry about what is sync'd and what isn't. I would guess that there will be a prettier hack in the future to support drag n drop but honestly, it doesn't matter all that much. And also, i've had little or no trouble with subtitles, so maybe it's the settings in the conversion or something but I haven't seen what you have. And the colors are better on the Zune in my eyes. Play a few games of Hexic on the Zune and tell me the colors are washed out! Again, i think it's more of a conversion issue than anythign else. But oh well. Enjoy your iPod. I hear they have forums for those too!
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2008, 02:59 PM
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Bottom Line:
Dear Creative Labs:
your mp3 players are second to none (in my opinion), best software, hardware and mp3 OS. Please come out with a player with a capacity in the 100's of gigs, if so i would gladly dump my new 'fruit branded' player.
thank you.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2008, 04:24 PM
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your right about the Vision M. IMHO, it was the best of it's time, better than the 1st gen Zune and the Ipod Video...but their newer ones are uninspired and dull...nothing to write home about...
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2008, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmoo2090 View Post
everytime I look on the forums there is not a concrete answer...
I beg to differ with this. There are concrete answers all around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmoo2090 View Post
DARN YOU CREATIVE!!! if you make a 120gb hard drive player, i would be the first in line to buy it!!! why, why, why?
Yeah, I don't think you would be alone waiting in line either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumx4182 View Post
You know that problem you had with the Vision M? You wouldn't be having it with a flash player. So keep that in mind.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumx4182 View Post
HDs are going the way of the the dinosaurs...extinct. Soon, once flash reaches 80gb and above, you'll almost never see a HD in a portable audio player again...
I don't think so. I think hard drives are and will be around for a long time. They only get smaller, faster, and more reliable as well. Plus you also have the new hybrid drives....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmoo2090 View Post
as far as flash vs hard drive, who cares which is it so long as you get the most for your money.... $250 for 32gb flash or $250 for 120gb HD... you tell me.
Many care. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to utilizing either one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmoo2090 View Post
...and the flash on mp3 players, im willing to bet, its the cheap one with write cycles in the 10,000...
No, the type of flash memory in USB flash drives and many types of embedded flash memory devices like MP3 players is NAND Flash Memory. NAND flash memory is stated as having a write endurance of 100K cycles. Keep in mind this was a cycle rating given to it back in the late 90's. Some types of flash memory have write cycles rated at 1,000K or even 2,000k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmoo2090 View Post
...what does that mean for a mp3 player? i think if you are a heavey user; loading and removing lots of videos and music, you might kill it in 2 to 3 years...
Many of today's devices will last much longer and many are beginning to have the same warranty period as hard drives. A more accurate claim would be to say that your typical NAND flash memory device has a write cycle of between 100k-1,000k. To this day, I have USB flash drives that are about 4 years old and have been dropped, thrown, stepped on, and even went through the washer a couple of times and they still work! In a portable device, I prefer to have my storage not susceptible to the wear and tear of transportation and possible failures due to drops. Yeah, you may have a hard drive that will last you ten years.... but that is assuming you don't drop it before hand. However, I fully understand the need for more storage capacity that flash memory hasn't yet brought to the average consumer and MP3 player market yet...... but it will get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumx4182 View Post
write cycles are grossly underestimated IMHO so that if the SSD fails, they can claim that the write cycle limit was reached. I see no reason to suspect that with proper treatment, they shouldn't last well beyond the numbers spec'd out.
I agree. What is more important here than estimated write cycles are wear leveling and bad block management. These wear-out techniques typically extend the life of the flash memory beyond the life of the device itself, as well as be more tolerable to data loss. A good wear leveling algorithm and BBM can make all the difference in your flash memory device lasting much longer than the estimated write cycle.
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:18 PM
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Sumx - i totally agree with you... zen mozaic... wtf!!! thing is so fugly i wouldnt even buy one for my mother in law!!
now - the perfect comeback for creative:
"A Zen Krystal like player with flash memory or hard drive with at least 120gb capacity, with at least the same video playback capabilities as the ZVM and all for $250.00, $300 tops"
...too bad this wont happen

Last edited by Jamesmoo2090; 11-12-2008 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:28 PM
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I agree as well. The Mozaic is definitely one of the least attractive looking DAP's I've seen in a while.

I'm not sure I would go as far as saying a Krystal "like" player.... maybe a Krystal "looking" player.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:53 PM
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Creative needs an overhaul. They were different and exciting with the Vision M and it seems like they tried to take that same player and change how it looks but not how it acts. The UI is getting old compared to some of the sleek UIs we see now (I'm looking at you Zune and iPod touch). The SD integration is inexcusably bad. It's just same old same old from them. If you owned a Vision M, then you owned a Zen, or an X-fi or a Mosaic. All that has changed is the memory storage and the form factor. It's just not exciting or inspiring in any way.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:02 PM
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Yeah, I know what you mean. The UI is basically the same, give and take some supported formats/features. As much as the iPod Touch's interface seems fresh and new with a touch screen interface, I still love the simplicity of Creative's since it isn't a touch screen. Keeping the same interface has also allowed for hardly any learning curve for its customers/followers. Yeah, this can be good and bad.... Anyway, the ZVM was quite possibly the best DAP ever released. It is a shame that Creative has moved away from it. Although, I pretty much agree with your opinion, I believe the Zen (non X-Fi) is an extremely sleek and good looking DAP. Its form factor and looks are part of its appeal for me. I can't say that for most other Creative players anymore.
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Old 11-14-2008, 02:40 PM
mplsgrl mplsgrl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmoo2090 View Post
So my zen vision m died... hard drive, clicking, no read... the works.

I tried looking into a replacement drive... but it was work beyond me, not to mention, everytime I look on the forums there is not a concrete answer... something works for some people, some others something else works... not to mention trying to find the right drive connector.

So what were my options?... a zen xfi, awesome player... but $250 for a 32 gigs....wtf?

Zune 120gb? I bought one...and returned it 10 days later...man, where do i begin...
-software: everything pretty much revolves around syncing forlders and doing everything everything for you, which DOES NOT mean doing what 'you' want it to dou, you cant just drag and drop to the player, you must drag to a "collection" which then goes to the player...which i HATE, if you have used the Zen VM you understand that the zen v explorer its awesome how its drag and drop and gives you total manual control, you can do exactly what you need without any hoops... unlike the zune.
-screen: videos look like $#!t , the screen sucks!!
-control: the touch button thingy its @$$inine

...so i have gone to the dark side and bought an ipod 120gb, the screen is awesome, you can even read subtitles just fine which for a screen that size says something, and the software, itunes not the best, but there is plenty of 3rd party.

but this post is NOT about how much better the iPod is... because is not.. DARN YOU CREATIVE!!! if you make a 120gb hard drive player, i would be the first in line to buy it!!! why, why, why?
aheem... excuse me.. hello.

Why did'nt you just repurchase another one? When/if mine dies that is what I will be doing. My son has an apple and I have a love hate relationship with it. I love that you can see the lyrics to the songs on the player, I dislike everything else.

Ebay has a few at a reasonable price.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:23 PM
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Yeah, it is an option.... Creative sells ZVM refurbs on their site here.
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Old 11-14-2008, 04:16 PM
mplsgrl mplsgrl is offline
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Default Thank you.

Purchasing from Zen even better.

So far so good for me and my Zen M.

I have had mine for a little over two years. I was hoping something would go wrong before my warranty expired, but that came and went. Now, I am just bobbin out here hopin everything continues to work for another two years.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
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Purchasing from Zen even better.
You mean from Creative. The Zen is the name of their MP3 player product line.
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:08 AM
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I don't even think creative need to do a lot to release something as good or better than apple/MS. Id say, take the ZVM, make it slimmer, change the plastics used, and offer HD's in the 100 GB+ area. People will still favour the easy-to-use UI, the great screen, and the far superior methods of data transfer.
C'mon creative... stop messing around trying to try new things that don't really work, and do what you do best... make life easier than the ones of ipod owners!
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:05 AM
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Yeah, well said benesotor. However, I never did consider the life of ones that own iPods as easier. Restricted or limited maybe.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:10 AM
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my thoughts on the mosaic:

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Old 11-15-2008, 11:22 AM
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Classic movie right there!

....You can't triple stamp a double stamp!
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