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  #21  
Old 04-30-2012, 05:31 PM
Enigmatic Enigmatic is offline
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It wasn't a blind test and the volume was set to "comfortable to my liking" on every dap I tried.
If it was not a blind test and volume matched to within 0.1 dB, then it can sometimes be very difficult to evaluate properly the sound quality differences between two audio devices. Please see the following post and my signature for more information on this subject. http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum...19&postcount=1.
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Now I ask you, did you blind test and carefully matched the volume on all the daps (with good DACs) you've tried to arrive to the conclusion that all good DACs sound the same?
This has been done with CD players. Please see the link above and my signature for the details. Therefore, a reasonable conclusion is that given any two good digital-to-analogue converters, no one should be able to hear a difference. Indeed, no one has so far been able to hear a difference.
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2012, 06:39 PM
vytman vytman is offline
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Thanks for the reply Enigmatic.

I have no arguments about blind tests, they are the best way for comparison 2 (or more) devices, songs etc, and while I may agree that all good DACs sound the same, they don't sound the same on different devices. It's like saying all core i7 have the same performance in a IBM compatible PC. That's not true, benchmarks prove otherwise (and general user usage) and the manufactor often offers BIOS upgrades to boost performance and stability.

Same with DAPs and DACs, a simple firmware upgrade can change how the device sounds, hence all DAPs with good DACs may or may not sound equally.
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  #23  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:39 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
It wasn't a blind test and the volume was set to "comfortable to my liking" on every dap I tried.
So basically, no where good enough to know how they sound

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
Now I ask you, did you blind test and carefully matched the volume on all the daps (with good DACs) you've tried to arrive to the conclusion that all good DACs sound the same?
No of course not, that would be a waste of my time. I just looked at the frequency response plots directly and confirmed that they were identical.

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
I have no arguments about blind tests, they are the best way for comparison 2 (or more) devices, songs etc, and while I may agree that all good DACs sound the same, they don't sound the same on different devices.
Yes the do.

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
Same with DAPs and DACs, a simple firmware upgrade can change how the device sounds, hence all DAPs with good DACs may or may not sound equally.
Only if its broken. If you ever find a measurable difference in the sound between rockbox and retail firmware, please file a bug report so that it gets fixed ASAP.
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  #24  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:03 PM
Enigmatic Enigmatic is offline
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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
I have no arguments about blind tests, they are the best way for comparison 2 (or more) devices, songs etc, and while I may agree that all good DACs sound the same, they don't sound the same on different devices. It's like saying all core i7 have the same performance in a IBM compatible PC. That's not true, benchmarks prove otherwise (and general user usage) and the manufactor often offers BIOS upgrades to boost performance and stability.
So if different CD players with different or identical digital-to-analogue converters are measured in a laboratory and these measurements predict that no one should be able to hear a difference in an ABX test, you expect many listeners to be able to hear a difference? This is definitely not what happened. No one was able to hear a difference.
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  #25  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:33 PM
vytman vytman is offline
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I honestly don't have the knowledge to discuss CD players (I presume that you are talking about those on the living room not the drive from a laptop) and I believe in the results of the test you posted.

What I do know is none of these players were measured in laboratory thus, it wasn't concluded that they should sound the same. They may have the same equally good DAC but they may differ in the amp (these players comes with different pre amp levels, they can sound different only for that factor), software tweaks under user level and overall implementation.

But don't take it from me, you can go to a store and test for yourself, I know it's no blind test but it's something that you tried and take some conclusions from yourself.

Again, I'm not saying that two equally good DACs sound different, I'm saying that the different players with those DACs sound different with the reasons mentioned above.
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  #26  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:55 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
What I do know is none of these players were measured in laboratory thus, it wasn't concluded that they should sound the same.
Why would you think that?

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
But don't take it from me, you can go to a store and test for yourself, I know it's no blind test but it's something that you tried and take some conclusions from yourself.
I could, but as I explained above, that is extremely difficult to do, and rather pointless since there are better tests I could do that would have much better sensitivity. Your comments above about frequency response basically come down to measuring voltages. There is a specific device, called a volt meter, that is rather good at metering volts. I'd prefer to use that

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Again, I'm not saying that two equally good DACs sound different, I'm saying that the different players with those DACs sound different with the reasons mentioned above.
What are the reasons mentioned above?
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  #27  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:01 PM
vytman vytman is offline
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Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
Why would you think that?
Where they tested? If so was a conclusion reached?

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Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
I could, but as I explained above, that is extremely difficult to do, and rather pointless since there are better tests I could do that would have much better sensitivity. Your comments above about frequency response basically come down to measuring voltages. There is a specific device, called a volt meter, that is rather good at metering volts. I'd prefer to use that
And what are those tests?

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What are the reasons mentioned above?
amp, software tweaks and implementation.

Btw, where did you get the info that all DAPs with equally good DACs sound the same?
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  #28  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:11 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
Where they tested? If so was a conclusion reached?
Lots of people have tested ipods and sandisk players, and many others. Why do you think it matters where someone tested?

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
And what are those tests?
As I said before, I would measure the voltage directly to see if it is neutral with frequency.

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
amp, software tweaks and implementation.
Well the second thing isn't really likely to happen in general, and the first and third only matter if your device is crap with such an easy to drive load. Since you're talking about players with good output, they don't really matter.

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
Btw, where did you get the info that all DAPs with equally good DACs sound the same?
I'm not sure how to answer this because its tautologically true. By definition if a device is good its producing the correct output. If two devices are producing the correct output, then they are producing the same output. If they are producing the same output, then they produce the same sound. A device becomes bad when it stops producing the correct output.

So you're basically saying, given that they sound the same, do they sound the same? The answer is obviously yes.

If you want to restate this question to make a little more sense, you should ask, do all DACs sound the same? The answer is no, there are some bad ones out there.
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  #29  
Old 05-01-2012, 01:03 PM
vytman vytman is offline
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Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
Lots of people have tested ipods and sandisk players, and many others. Why do you think it matters where someone tested?


Well the second thing isn't really likely to happen in general, and the first and third only matter if your device is crap with such an easy to drive load. Since you're talking about players with good output, they don't really matter.


I'm not sure how to answer this because its tautologically true. By definition if a device is good its producing the correct output. If two devices are producing the correct output, then they are producing the same output. If they are producing the same output, then they produce the same sound. A device becomes bad when it stops producing the correct output.

So you're basically saying, given that they sound the same, do they sound the same? The answer is obviously yes.

If you want to restate this question to make a little more sense, you should ask, do all DACs sound the same? The answer is no, there are some bad ones out there.

It doesn't matter where, but I would like to see the tests instead of someone claiming they made them.
I can tell you that I've read people who made ABX with Sonys Ipods etc and concluded that they sound different but that probably doesn't say much to you.

As you can see here the Clip+ and the Touch 3G sound practicably the same, but the classic 5G and 6G sounds different.

And software tweaks are the main reason for DAPs sounding different (not referring the case above but generally speaking). A simple bass boost made under user awareness and control is enough to do that. Ofc the bass boosted player measures and sounds different from other player with a flatier FR, but that only proves my point, 2 different players with equally good DACs may sound different.

When I first heard the classic 7G with my 4P the trebles pierced my ears to a level of pain and discomfort, that doesn't happened with my SGS. Unless you suffer from severe expectation bias you don't need to do a blind test to tell which one hurt your hears.
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  #30  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:39 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
It doesn't matter where, but I would like to see the tests instead of someone claiming they made them.
Then you shouldn't complain to me about where they were made!

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
As you can see here the Clip+ and the Touch 3G sound practicably the same, but the classic 5G and 6G sounds
Yes, the Clip, Classic Touch are very good players, while the 5G wasn't as good and had trouble with difficult to drive headphones.

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
And software tweaks are the main reason for DAPs sounding different (not referring the case above but generally speaking). A simple bass boost made under user awareness and control is enough to do that.
haha yes obviously turning EQ on will change frequencies. That is the point of an EQ. If you had one that didn't change the frequency response it wouldn't be much of an EQ now would it?

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
Ofc the bass boosted player measures and sounds different from other player with a flatier FR, but that only proves my point, 2 different players with equally good DACs may sound different.
No it proves that EQs can change the frequency response of a player . . . which I think should be obvious if you know what an EQ does!

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Originally Posted by vytman View Post
When I first heard the classic 7G with my 4P the trebles pierced my ears to a level of pain and discomfort, that doesn't happened with my SGS. Unless you suffer from severe expectation bias you don't need to do a blind test to tell which one hurt your hears.
One was louder then the other since you didn't volume match them. Remember, perceived frequency response is itself a function of volume, since your ears frequency response is not linear with intensity. This is why you must precisely match volume before making these comparisons, or better yet use a meter instead of your ears so you don't have to deal with the equal loudness contours.
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