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  #1  
Old 04-04-2008, 09:50 PM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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Default Not exactly CD sound quality via bluetooth

Can anyone confirm or deny this on the insignia? Is this true for all bluetooth, are they lying when they say "CD quality sound via wireless?" I'm not much of an audiophile but I can hear the difference. I had to turn the Custom EQ bands all the way down (-12) in order to get decent quality. I'm sure it sounds much much better than an FM modulator but there are some pretty expensive pieces of hardware (home and car receivers), if the quality isn't exactly CD quality then why advertise it as such???
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2008, 10:08 PM
vferrari vferrari is offline
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See this thread for all the gory details on Bluetooth transmission quality wrt to the Pilot. It really gets into all the geeky details: - note that the quality depends on many variables including the transmission protocol of the player, the receiver, the audio reproduction circuitry, and when it comes to bluetooth headsets, the quality of the headphone driver elements. Regardless I find the bluetooth quality of the Pilot to be acceptable and I like the convenience of no wires and remote controllability of the player from the headset.

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum...ad.php?t=27380
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  #3  
Old 04-04-2008, 11:26 PM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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I say it's about time for a class action lawsuit of Bluetooth SIG and manufactures claiming to have CD quality sound over bluetooth.

These manufacturers are charging over $100 for receivers, headphones, and transmitters promising "Streaming digital CD Quality sound" and it seems this isn't even remotely possible in a lab environment. I don't think anyone expects distortion whatsoever but it seems that people listen and say "it's good enough considering it's wireless"... that's completely ridiculous. Luckily I got a absurdly great deal on the new Scosche UBRH unit I bought and my Insignia Pilot, but the UBRH goes for $100 and the 4GB Pilot goes for $120, that's $220 in "Streaming digital CD quality" components that do NOT come even close. Anyone else as appalled as I am?
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  #4  
Old 04-04-2008, 11:31 PM
Beni Beni is offline
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"Sound quality" is subjective so you won't get anywhere. Also, Bluetooth Headphones are 30$ and a 8GB Pilot is 130$ on Best Buy... so yeah...
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2008, 01:56 AM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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Digital sound quality is not subjective. If I stick the CD into my CD player, I get CD quality audio; no artifacts, no distortion (unless it was originally recorded with them)... after all it is digital. This is not what is being generated by these devices that advertise CD quality audio via Bluetooth even if you had lossless encoded files. It's cassette quality audio at best.
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  #6  
Old 04-05-2008, 07:25 AM
Beni Beni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigs3rd View Post
Digital sound quality is not subjective. If I stick the CD into my CD player, I get CD quality audio; no artifacts, no distortion (unless it was originally recorded with them)... after all it is digital. This is not what is being generated by these devices that advertise CD quality audio via Bluetooth even if you had lossless encoded files. It's cassette quality audio at best.
Try to file a class action lawsuit, you will lose. Like vferrari said its mainly the Pilot, on other bluetooth devices it sounds much better.
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  #7  
Old 04-05-2008, 07:33 AM
vferrari vferrari is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigs3rd View Post
I say it's about time for a class action lawsuit of Bluetooth SIG and manufactures claiming to have CD quality sound over bluetooth. ... Anyone else as appalled as I am?
Yeah, good luck with that. That's what we need is more lawsuits. I'm not really even close to being "appalled". Pretty happy with my Pilot and collection of bluetooth headphones and bluethooth home/auto receivers. I think its a great setup and sounds good. Is it CD quality? Who knows - but the point is pretty much moot since my Pilot digital audio files are not technically CD quality either. I do know that the setup in my car sounds about as good as a direct wired connection into the aux input of my Aiwa deck. I'm using a Sony HWS-BTA2W bluetooth transciever to feed my Aiwa and for the 17 bucks I paid for it, I couldn't be much happier with the audio quality. I will admit that the audio quality of various bluetooth devices (headsets and transcievers) I've tried does vary all over the map. But I would find it hard to conclusively argue against the "CD quality" audio claims of the manufacturers of quality bluetooth audio equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigs3rd View Post
Digital sound quality is not subjective. If I stick the CD into my CD player, I get CD quality audio; no artifacts, no distortion (unless it was originally recorded with them)... after all it is digital. This is not what is being generated by these devices that advertise CD quality audio via Bluetooth even if you had lossless encoded files. It's cassette quality audio at best.
BTW it is subjective - I put a CD in my car stereo vs. my CD walkman vs. my $5000 theater and they are all not going to sound the same but are all still considered "CD quality" - so what is the minimum threshhold for the burden of proof? Is CD Quality legally defined somewhere? Combine that with the fact that most people are already NOT LISTENING to CD quality audio from their portable players to begin with if they are using any type of lossy digital codec (e.g., 95% of the digital fomats out there) and you really don't have much of a case.

As someone who grew up on cassette mix tapes (yeah, don't knock "cassette audio quality" - LOL) I am constantly amazed and amused by the obsession with audio quality in the digital age primarily because such judgments can be supported through technical facts and statistics (bitrates, sampling rates, waveform analysis, codec reproduction accuracy etc) even if our ears can't really discern the differences in the most cases (as proven by double blind tests). It amuses me further when I hear of people wanting to encode their files at ever increasing bitrates that approach uncompressed PCM to eliminate artifacts which kind of defeats the whole purpose of compression in the first place (trading quality vs. file size - i.e, tastes great vs. less filling). And don't get me started on Album Art LOL!

Time to focus your tech-geek-informed litigious energies elsewhere within the consumer electronics industry. Maybe you can sue Insignia for not releasing any new firmware for the Pilot - now that would have merit. Good luck.
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  #8  
Old 04-05-2008, 08:42 AM
jamccart jamccart is offline
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To the contrary, I have very good quality using the Bluetooth connection on my Pilot. It may depend on the receiver you are using. For reference, I have the Insignia iPod Bluetooth connector on my home stereo, an Anycom FIPO receiver in my truck, and connect to a Sony CMT-BX5BT in my office. Each of them works excellent.
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  #9  
Old 04-05-2008, 10:13 AM
woof woof is offline
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CD quality sound?

Hardly, as I understand it the SBC codec has a maximum dynamic range of about 70dB (or a S/N ratio of 70dB). CD-A has a dynamic range (if I recall correctly) of either 94 or 96dB. Huge difference. In this regard, SBC has about what a Dolby "C" cassette tape yielded (around a 70db S/N).

Even worse, the SBC codec, if fully used at 320kps, can give a frequency response of 20Hz to 20KHz (@44kHz sampling rate) but only at a single frequency. Complex [audio] patterns, as I understand the codec, can reduce the frequency response range.

Woof
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:09 AM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woof View Post
CD quality sound?

Hardly, as I understand it the SBC codec has a maximum dynamic range of about 70dB (or a S/N ratio of 70dB). CD-A has a dynamic range (if I recall correctly) of either 94 or 96dB. Huge difference. In this regard, SBC has about what a Dolby "C" cassette tape yielded (around a 70db S/N).

Even worse, the SBC codec, if fully used at 320kps, can give a frequency response of 20Hz to 20KHz (@44kHz sampling rate) but only at a single frequency. Complex [audio] patterns, as I understand the codec, can reduce the frequency response range.

Woof
My point exactly, thanks Woof. When I was listening to the audio I thought to myself "this sounds ok, more like cassette quality."Again, everyone who posts keeps saying things along the lines of "it sounds pretty good". Yeah, that's great... but I haven't heard anyone say "wow, it's incredible, it sounds exactly like CD quality!" All I keep hearing is "well, it's better than FM..."

Although I got an incredible deal on the units I bought ($71 for the 4GB Insignia Pilot and $8 for the Scosche UBRH, both new) some users out there are paying hundreds of dollars for this technology. Shame on those "professional reviewers" who can't say one con about the product that perform substandard to the advertised quality.

I'm really totally not the "litigious type" but the quality on these products (and I'm not even close to an audiophile, actually I suffer from acute tinnitus) seems so misrepresented that it seems to warrant a CAL.

Anyways, this post was supposed to be more about the lack of CD quality audio, considering what's advertised. So can anyone suggest better combinations with the Insignia Pilot or talk about their experiences with quality or lack there of? I'm looking for a receiver (unit to plug into any audio input), not a headset.
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  #11  
Old 04-05-2008, 01:30 PM
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Tobey Tobey is offline
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I think you need to rethink your Scosche UBRH purchase... I've been reading reports all over the internet of this unit putting out distorted, low quality audio.

If you have a decent bluetooth receiver, the audio coming from the Pilot over BT should sound damn near CD quality. If it sounds like a cassette, something is wrong.
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2008, 02:40 PM
Beni Beni is offline
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Exactly. Go buy any set up AD2P headphones with a bundled matching adapter, you will have near CD Quality sound. Though, CD quality sound isn't the best possible.
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  #13  
Old 04-05-2008, 04:19 PM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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I've read the same reviews, I think the audio quality is "good enough" though and I'm going to go ahead and install it in my car. So for those of you that have bluetooth setups did you have to do anything to your player to get it to sound just right? I get really distorted sound if I have the EQ on normal. Since the player does support AVRCP are you controlling output volume from the Insignia Pilot?
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  #14  
Old 04-05-2008, 04:31 PM
vferrari vferrari is offline
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If your pilot is over-driving the bluetooth receiver try going into the custom equalizer settings and dial back to below 0dB across the frequency spectrum and adjust the profile to suit (e.g., emphasized high's and low's for example - but with all settings below or slightly above 0dB). I personally like an emphasized high's and low's ("V") profile on the graphic equalizer but have found that the Jazz eq preset sounds good also. I have not seen a problem with the Pilot overdriving either my Sony HWS-BTA2W in receive mode that I have hooked up to my car stereo or my Motorola S9 or 720 pendant bluetooth stereo headsets even with emphasized eq. (i.e., >> 0dB, low and high frequency) settings. Unlike my stereo bluetooth headsets my Sony BT receiver cannot control volume, so "what I hear is what I get", but like I said, it does not sound overdriven and/or distorted. I think Woof's thread (referenced previously) goes into details regarding his observations on the Pilot's BT output which appears to be intentionally max'ed out to promote S/N ratio. Good luck.
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  #15  
Old 04-05-2008, 06:27 PM
jamccart jamccart is offline
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ludwigs,
What sort of bluetooth device are you looking to install on your car? Replacing the head unit, or does it already have a connector for the Bluetooth adaptor? Depending on what you're looking at installing, the reviews will be different.

Personally, my car had an iPod connector, to which I plugged in the FIPO unit from Anycom. As I said above, it sounds real good. I control the equalizer through the head unit, as well as the volume. The Pilot only controls the song selection (although you can skip to the next song or go to the previous song through the head unit, but you can't go to a particular song).
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  #16  
Old 04-06-2008, 10:37 AM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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Do you think there is something on the receiver end that is allowing for no clipping/distortion? Perhaps the Scosche receiver that I have isn't smart enough to detect an over-driven signal and tune it down?
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  #17  
Old 04-07-2008, 01:33 PM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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I contacted tech support at Scosche and received this reply:
Issues of compatibility often exhibit distorted or poor sound quality. We have documented instances of poor sound quality with certain Bluetooth transmitters; one of those being the MacBook. We have yet to research the Insignia Pilot so it is difficult to confirm its compatibility with our product.
It may also be that the UBRH is defective. Where was the UBRH purchased from?
Regards,
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  #18  
Old 04-08-2008, 09:09 AM
vferrari vferrari is offline
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If you want Scosche tech support to continue to be responsive, don't let them know you intend to eventually sue them.
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  #19  
Old 04-08-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigs3rd View Post
Do you think there is something on the receiver end that is allowing for no clipping/distortion? Perhaps the Scosche receiver that I have isn't smart enough to detect an over-driven signal and tune it down?
I don't know. But it's definitly something on the receiver end. Like I said, it should sound damn near CD quality if you have a good receiver. There's a very good reason you got it so cheap...
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  #20  
Old 04-08-2008, 11:44 AM
ludwigs3rd ludwigs3rd is offline
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The Scosche UBRH isn't cheap, it's $99 in stores. I'll try to contain any litigious tendencies when contacting tech support.
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