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  #101  
Old 03-30-2008, 02:46 PM
halrhp halrhp is offline
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Default response: khaytsus' tacit dismissal of alternative explanations

Of course khaytsus is right that it is broken. I don't see how I can argue with them either. They have the device and the final word. But that doesn't mean that I broke it. There are other possibilities, but I can't argue with them about it.

What I am questioning is the determination of the cause of the failure. Creative Labs can say that they determined that it was customer caused damage. I have no way to dispute that. Is it possible that it was defective? Is it possible that it had a defect that made it susceptible to breakage under normal use? Is it possible that it was a latent defect that only manifested after a certain amount of use -- heat, movement, other aspect of "normal" use. I am wondering whether my misuse or abuse or other behavior is responsible for the breakage, the damage to the LCD.

I was told that the exterior of the screen was not damaged, that the damage occurred below that surface. I cannot describe it technically, but the liquids in the LCD were no longer behaving as they should. The customer support supervisor I spoke with said that it could have been broken before the damage manifested. This would account for the fact that it was working when I turned it off on the night of the 19th and was broken when I turned it on on the morning of the 20th. How long before the morning of the 20th it was broken is undetermined.

I grant that I may be responsible for the damage. I also wish to question whether that is unequivocally the case. I am sure that defective manufactured goods don't all manifest the failure due to their defect right away. But I don't know enough about LCD technology to know what the likelihood is that an LCD screen could have such a defect and take a certain amount of use, heat, movement, or whatever to manifest it.

I question kyaytsus' implication that it could only be broken due to my abuse. I am questioning the situation in which they have it in their possession, and they can assert that they have made the determination that it broke due to customer misuse. And they are the final authority and simply don't repair or replace it under the warranty.
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  #102  
Old 04-01-2008, 02:07 PM
nrfuller nrfuller is offline
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Default The white screen problem - What's the deal?

Uh can anyone tell me the full story on the whole "white screen of death" thing?

Is it totally irreversable? Is it still happening? Is it limited to certain size players?

I'm just curious about this. I've heard rumblings here and on other boards, but never seen anything definative other than the fact that that white screen is bad news.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance, I appreciate it.
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  #103  
Old 04-02-2008, 04:49 PM
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I believe it all goes back to the Zen's release where it looked as though they were a number of bad Zen's (Batches possibly) that suffered from this issue. If new and when turned on or updating to newer firmware from older releases, the screen would just show all white. I believe it was a mixture of defected Zen's as well as a firmware induced issue. From what I have read, it appears to have calmed down now.
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  #104  
Old 04-02-2008, 08:21 PM
TheGadgetDoctor TheGadgetDoctor is offline
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Default White Screen of Death Problem - Solved (but its not what you wanted to read)

Firmware? Tricks with the hold button? All frivolous. If your screen is starting to show white, has ever shown white, or is only white or comes out of white mode when you do tricks with the hold button, you have an LCD hardware failure.

Updating or rolling back the firmware solved the problem for you? You happened to get lucky.

I just tried all the above tricks on a test Zen 8GB unit; upgraded the firmware, tried 3 different tricks with the hold button. Then I replaced the LCD. Bingo. Replacing the LCD worked.

If your screen is going white, its in your LCD. The magic in the firmware or the hold switch is just a temporary fix.

If you have white screen issues, I would recommend you exchange it for another one at Creative. ASAP!!!!
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  #105  
Old 04-02-2008, 10:57 PM
Nickel II Nickel II is offline
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Curious, where and how did you get the LCD replaced and how much did it cost?
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  #106  
Old 04-02-2008, 10:59 PM
Nickel II Nickel II is offline
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Nevermind, just saw your website.
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  #107  
Old 04-02-2008, 11:02 PM
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My screen only flashes white when coming back from sleep mode. This is not a sympton, is it?
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  #108  
Old 04-03-2008, 01:07 AM
TheGadgetDoctor TheGadgetDoctor is offline
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It could be. Any company and its software engineers that produce electronics such as this should fix even minor problems such as that during product development. My expectations for Creative products are pretty high I suppose.
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  #109  
Old 04-03-2008, 01:36 AM
TheGadgetDoctor TheGadgetDoctor is offline
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The LCD used in the Zen is the same one used in the Zen Vision:M, except that it has many more colors and a slightly different connector cable.

Creative Labs makes its LCDs differently from an iPod's or a Zune's screen; Creative Labs believes that display quality is more important and thats where they try to get their edge in the market. "Look at us; we have superior screens....CRACK!!!!"

Creative Labs has better displays, iPod and Zune screens crack less often. Its a tradeoff.

Now, no matter what MP3 player you buy or who made it, they ALL see a cracked screen as your fault. It is true that some very small percentage of screen cracks are not directly your fault, and are the cause of exposure to heat, cold, humidity, etc.

Don't leave it in your car, don't leave it outside, don't put it in the fridge, and for crying out loud, don't put it in your pocket.

You have four options:
1) Let Creative Labs repair it
2) Sell it on Ebay as-is
3) Replace the LCD yourself
4) Send it to me for LCD replacement
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  #110  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:00 AM
halrhp halrhp is offline
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AerozBooks:

Thanks very much. I read your message and appreciate your taking the time to write in detail. What you wrote is consistent with what I have now concluded.

Creative Labs is sending my old one back and I plan to either replace the screen or have you do that. I went to your web site a few days ago when I read one of your posts on the forum. Looks like you are on top of this issue.

I am also getting a new one from Creative Labs for $200, so there will be no urgency to fix the old one. But I think it is a great player and strongly prefer over my iPOD Touch 16 GB which I have had for a few months now. It is simply easier to use, smaller, lighter, and works well. I bought the screen protectors, but I have no faith that they are capable of preventing the disasters that so many on abipod have written about. I will give the old one, once repaired, to someone I like AND who I think is capable of being gentle and careful with it.

By the way, I am a native of Portland, so your location gives me a feeling of connection. I am in Santa Cruz, CA where I have lived for more than three decades now.

halrhp
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  #111  
Old 04-03-2008, 08:43 AM
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Damn, I just got my first WSOD and had to reset the other day - fine for now. Glad I spotted your post and thanks for the info, it'll probably save me a LOT of headaches in the future.
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  #112  
Old 04-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Qboi Qboi is offline
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a temporary easy fix is to place your Zen into hold until the screen turns off for a few seconds, then turning it back on.
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  #113  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:44 AM
NoodlesKnowles NoodlesKnowles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qboi View Post
a temporary easy fix is to place your Zen into hold until the screen turns off for a few seconds, then turning it back on.
"The magic in the firmware or the hold switch is just a temporary fix."

try reading the thread....
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  #114  
Old 04-07-2008, 02:58 AM
dragnandy dragnandy is offline
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lucky me i never got the WSOD
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  #115  
Old 04-08-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AerozBooks View Post
Updating or rolling back the firmware solved the problem for you? You happened to get lucky.
Something isn't sitting right with me after reading your latest "bad LCD causing WSOD" posts.... I don't know if it is because of the possible relation to your business or the hint of sales pitchy-ness within your posts, idk. However, I have an innocent question for you and please don't take this the wrong way because I do appreciate the services you do provide for other dap's and Creative related products, as well as the steps you have taken to end up at your conclusion with the new Zen. Anyway, here is my question....

Although I am not disagreeing with you in that the WSOD is most likely a LCD hardware issue, how would you explain it to those people that had gotten the WSOD and upgraded their firmware (to the latest firmware) and "got lucky" with resolving their issue? After all, if it is a hardware fault, then how could a firmware fix correct it or even compensate enough for it to not cause problems with a non-hardware failure?

I would be real interested in hearing from anyone that experienced a WSOD and was able to resolve that issue by upgrading their firmware!

If anyone IS experiencing any type of WSOD, please return your product or take up Creative's warranty for repair or replacement. Even if it is related to a hardware fault (which I am thinking it is), I would even go as far as recommending replacement to those people that seem to have had it resolved by upgrading their firmware; just in case. It is better to be safe and return it now while under warranty instead of waiting until it is out of warranty and taking a chance of any problems related to the WSOD returning at a later time.
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  #116  
Old 04-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Nickel II Nickel II is offline
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I've asked in numerous posts on numerous discussion boards if anyone has 100% addressed a WSOD problem with a firmware change. No one has come forward and said so yet. Only that the problem isn't as bad.

reagrding firmware potentially improving the situation, the company I work at is an electronics company. Not MP3 players, we're an industrial type business. The equipment we sell had a LCD problem a few years ago where the screens would go completely blank. The unit was on and if you knew what you were doing, you could do your job with it even with a blank screen because you would know the keystrokes.

The only way to bring the LCD back was to turn the unti off and back on again.

Rather than spend a bunch of money to retrofit all of our customers units, we came up with a firmware fix that would mask the problem. It wasn't a true fix, we just made the firmware "hide" the problem thru some electronics trickery.

I have littel doubt in my mind that some of the firmware releases just happen to "play more nicely" with the LCD issue than others.

Still looking for someone who had WSOD and fixed it 100% with firmware.
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  #117  
Old 04-08-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qboi View Post
i started a thread months ago about how i was going to get a warranty replacement for my zen, but after the 1.20 firmware i haven't encountered the problem at all.


Qboi, have you yet to have a WSOD since?

Quote:
No one has come forward and said so yet. Only that the problem isn't as bad.


Yes, I have read much of the same as the majority.

Quote:
reagrding firmware potentially improving the situation, the company I work at is an electronics company. Not MP3 players, we're an industrial type business. The equipment we sell had a LCD problem a few years ago where the screens would go completely blank. The unit was on and if you knew what you were doing, you could do your job with it even with a blank screen because you would know the keystrokes.
Quote:

The only way to bring the LCD back was to turn the unti off and back on again.

Rather than spend a bunch of money to retrofit all of our customers units, we came up with a firmware fix that would mask the problem. It wasn't a true fix, we just made the firmware "hide" the problem thru some electronics trickery.
Understood. However, I am questioning whether that would be classified as a "failure" or an "issue". To me a "failure is a "failure". Meaning the device is broke, dead, not working in any way; failed. The fact that the WSOD is not permanent (and does work most of the time), makes me question if it is the actual LCD or something connected or related to that is causing this issue. If the LCD failed, then how does it continue to work? Perhaps there is an issue with the connector, the video output, loose connection, backlight, etc that may be creating an intermittent issue instead.

Quote:
I have little doubt in my mind that some of the firmware releases just happen to "play more nicely" with the LCD issue than others.


I'm not saying it isn't impossible. I'm just curious to his explanation. I want to know how he knows exactly that it is the LCD causing the issue (hopefully more then just replacing the screen and starting it up and not seeing it). By all means get technical. I believe there are plenty here that can handle the explanation. I am not saying he is wrong. I believe the answer is along this road somewhere. I am just questioning his motives. Coming on here claiming the WSOD is caused by a LCD hardware failure by someone that runs a business replacing and repairing these LCD's in Mp3 players, is a little suspicious to me. I just think there is more of an explaination due here. It may be a little paranoid of me and I'm sorry for that. I am just asking him to at least back up his claim if he can or if he is good enough to have a business doing this type of work, maybe he can enlighten us with his opinion as to what he may think is wrong with the LCD. He may only know that just replacing the LCD worked, but then again, so did many that had upgraded their firmware and then a while later, the WSOD happened again. If what he says is true, great! No harm done and he gains some respect in my eyes and everyone gets to know the truth to the cause of the WSOD.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Creative (or any company at that) would release firmware to "mask" the issue as much as possible. If Creative can do this, it would be nice to hear from THEM as why it is happening (I know wishful thinking right ). After all, if they can create firmware to "hide" the issue, then they must have some type of an idea as to what is causing it. Perhaps there are no hardware failures at all and it is completely firmware related, which could also explain as to why some people who upgrade experience the WSOD less often. Maybe that also explains why Creative hasn't mentioned there is a hardware issue.....

Regardless, if it is a "failure" or an "issue". No one should have to put up with it while using their Zen. It should be returned/replaced since they should all still be covered under manufacture warranty.
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  #118  
Old 04-09-2008, 07:59 PM
Riolist Riolist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyRS View Post
Perhaps there are no hardware failures at all and it is completely firmware related, which could also explain as to why some people who upgrade experience the WSOD less often. Maybe that also explains why Creative hasn't mentioned there is a hardware issue.....
I'm not getting this. If it's only a firmware issue, why is it not consistent across all instances of that particular firmware? Apparently some people have the issue more than others with the same firmware. Some people don't have it at all, some people have it occasionally, some people have it a lot - all with the same firmware, right? Some people upgraded to the latest firmware and the problem went away. Some people upgraded and the problem diminished, etc. That doesn't look like just a firmware issue. If there's a bug in a firmware version, everyone with that version of the firmware has that bug. This problem doesn't look anything like that.

It sounds to me like it's a tolerance issue. LCD's, and most electronic components that interface with other components have defined specifications, stating what signals and timings they will respond to. If the electronics that were designed to drive the LCD were designed based on certain specifications, and the actual LCD's, or some of them, fall outside of those specs, there's going to be problems.

This is not a good thing when a company is as stubborn, secretive, and unresponsive to customer's needs as Creative is.
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  #119  
Old 04-09-2008, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riolist View Post
I'm not getting this. If it's only a firmware issue, why is it not consistent across all instances of that particular firmware?


I would think so as well, however we just don't know what the cause is. My rambling there was just geared more towards not knowing more so then an actual possibility.
Quote:
Apparently some people have the issue more than others with the same firmware. Some people don't have it at all, some people have it occasionally, some people have it a lot - all with the same firmware, right? Some people upgraded to the latest firmware and the problem went away. Some people upgraded and the problem diminished, etc.


I don't know for sure, but I don't think it's really targeted by one particular firmware version; Maybe more so with the versions one or two before the current one. Other then the post from Qboi, I know of no one that has said that the WSOD has completely disappeared since upgrading to the latest firmware. Most who get them claim they get them less often after upgrading.

Quote:
That doesn't look like just a firmware issue. If there's a bug in a firmware version, everyone with that version of the firmware has that bug. This problem doesn't look anything like that.


Who really knows if the firmware could be exaggerating or hiding the issue... I'm thinking more along the lines that the firmware may be emphasizing on or just more sensitive to the fault.

Quote:
It sounds to me like it's a tolerance issue. LCD's, and most electronic components that interface with other components have defined specifications, stating what signals and timings they will respond to. If the electronics that were designed to drive the LCD were designed based on certain specifications, and the actual LCD's, or some of them, fall outside of those specs, there's going to be problems.


I think this is in line with those who were thinking there were bad batches when the WSOD began happening.

Quote:
This is not a good thing when a company is as stubborn, secretive, and unresponsive to customer's needs as Creative is.


No it isn't. There should have been some sort of acknowledgement or explanation from Creative on this by now.
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  #120  
Old 04-10-2008, 12:45 PM
Qboi Qboi is offline
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Originally Posted by BobbyRS View Post

Qboi, have you yet to have a WSOD since?
it started again a month ago. no specific event triggered them, but now pretty much everytime i turn on the player, its the WSOD. totally sucks. i need to send it in for RMA, but i can't find the time.

it started again a week before i upgraded to the 1.21 firmware, so i don't think it stopped because of the firmware.
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