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  #21  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:59 AM
claphands claphands is offline
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I'm glad that my confusion about this wasn't solely due to being a novice at this stuff (as per the lively discussion).

So far I've ordered a fuze, an e3, and a pair of pk3s. Currently looking for some hd280s at US$70-80 shipped. If the e3 isn't useful I'm only out ten bucks - relative to all the other shit I'm buying it's not a big deal.

Hopefully once I get everything I'll be able to weigh in more and contribute to this discussion

edit: I've now ordered the hd280s!

Last edited by claphands; 03-02-2009 at 03:43 PM.

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  #22  
Old 03-02-2009, 10:47 PM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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I'm surprised at how quickly that simply disagreeing with someone on this forum brings back some rather personal attacks. Outside of high school, an opinion is merely an opinion, not an attack on someone's integrity. Jeez.
Oh, well. Bottom line to me is that audio is a very personal experience. You can ask for info or state an opinion, but until you yourself experience a DAP, IEM, etc., you won't know how it works for you. That's the frustration and also the beauty of all this, that no two people hear precisely the same way. Get what you can afford and enjoy the experience!

  #23  
Old 03-03-2009, 12:13 AM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
I'm surprised at how quickly that simply disagreeing with someone on this forum brings back some rather personal attacks. Outside of high school, an opinion is merely an opinion, not an attack on someone's integrity. Jeez.
Oh, well. Bottom line to me is that audio is a very personal experience. You can ask for info or state an opinion, but until you yourself experience a DAP, IEM, etc., you won't know how it works for you. That's the frustration and also the beauty of all this, that no two people hear precisely the same way. Get what you can afford and enjoy the experience!
Well said!
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  #24  
Old 03-08-2009, 10:39 AM
Appletree Appletree is offline
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Guys, I have a pair of Philips SHE-9800 IEM type earphone which to be used with my Fuze. I feel the sound seems lacking a bit of bass, especially when I'm listening techno/trance songs with this earphone. And now, I have plan to buy FiiO amps to fix this problem. Does this Philips IEM works with FiiO amps? Here's my Philips IEM's specification:
Maximum Power Input: 50 mW
Frequncy Response: 12 Hz - 22 KHz
Sensitivity: 106*dB at 1 KHz
Impedance: 16 Ohms

  #25  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:02 AM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Guys, I have a pair of Philips SHE-9800 IEM type earphone which to be used with my Fuze. I feel the sound seems lacking a bit of bass, especially when I'm listening techno/trance songs with this earphone. And now, I have plan to buy FiiO amps to fix this problem. Does this Philips IEM works with FiiO amps? Here's my Philips IEM's specification:
Maximum Power Input: 50 mW
Frequncy Response: 12 Hz - 22 KHz
Sensitivity: 106*dB at 1 KHz
Impedance: 16 Ohms
The FiiO E3 would give you a lot of hiss with those 'phones. I'm not sure about the E5...I don't use any headphones that sensitive with mine.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:40 AM
Appletree Appletree is offline
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The FiiO E3 would give you a lot of hiss with those 'phones. I'm not sure about the E5...I don't use any headphones that sensitive with mine.
Thanks for your information. Well, I think I will cancel my plan to buy FiiO amps if that thing you've just said would happen. By the way, I've just tried to set custom EQ in my Fuze to gain more bass, it's little bit help, but seems I have to lose a little bit sound detail with it.

  #27  
Old 03-10-2009, 11:38 AM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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That's a typical problem cited with DAPs - loss of detail. I have a bad case of tinnitus, so I depend on my amps for more detail at a lower volume... just loud enough to overcome the "ringing" but not make it worse. Also, mp3s are notorious for loss of detail, so having an amp helps me to get more sound quality without having to make it louder. Both the PA2V2 and the E5 deliver what I need. I haven't noticed any issues with the E5, by the way - and the "hiss" issue with the E3 is apparently not there with the '5 (I don't have an E3 to compare, so I can only go by reports I've read, and my own experience with the E5.)

  #28  
Old 03-10-2009, 11:50 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
That's a typical problem cited with DAPs - loss of detail. I have a bad case of tinnitus, so I depend on my amps for more detail at a lower volume... just loud enough to overcome the "ringing" but not make it worse.
With a Fuze or some other player? Amps do help with some players, just not the ones being discussed here (read thread).

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
Also, mp3s are notorious for loss of detail, so having an amp helps me to get more sound quality without having to make it louder.
MP3 compression doesn't reduce detail, it adds noise. Theres a big difference. People who say it loses detail usually have no idea what they're talking about and should be ignored.

And amping noise doesn't help. It just makes the noise louder.

  #29  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:27 AM
Appletree Appletree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
That's a typical problem cited with DAPs - loss of detail. I have a bad case of tinnitus, so I depend on my amps for more detail at a lower volume... just loud enough to overcome the "ringing" but not make it worse. Also, mp3s are notorious for loss of detail, so having an amp helps me to get more sound quality without having to make it louder. Both the PA2V2 and the E5 deliver what I need. I haven't noticed any issues with the E5, by the way - and the "hiss" issue with the E3 is apparently not there with the '5 (I don't have an E3 to compare, so I can only go by reports I've read, and my own experience with the E5.)
So, is it okay if I use my IEM which have high sesitivity (106 dB at 1 KHz) and low impedance (16 Ohms) with FiiO E5? Would there be any hissing noise?

  #30  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:41 AM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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So, is it okay if I use my IEM which have high sesitivity (106 dB at 1 KHz) and low impedance (16 Ohms) with FiiO E5? Would there be any hissing noise?
If the volume on your player is turned up high, and the volume on the E5 is low, that should minimize the hiss as compared to the E3, where you can't adjust it at all. Not saying it won't hiss at all, but it won't be nearly as bad as with the E3.
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  #31  
Old 03-13-2009, 01:43 AM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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Taking the high road.....
I much prefer my Fuze with an amp. I have several IEMs and 3 or 4 full-size phones, and all seem to benefit from my PA2V2 and to a lesser extent, my E5. The PA2 gives the sound I want either thru the LOD or the EP jack; the E5 is better thru the jack. I prefer using the amps for the reasons given before.... and again, given that sound in general is an individual thing, I can't say I feel bad that anyone might disagree with my opinion, no matter how difficult it may be for a person to express their disagreement in a cordial manner. You find what suits you, and you go with it. If you don't need an amp, great. That's a few more bucks in your pocket for more phones or DAPs. If you try an amp and you like it, well, that's great, too.

  #32  
Old 03-13-2009, 10:50 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
Taking the high road.....
You haven't taken the high road. That would involve, at very least, acknowledging your mistakes, if not correcting them. All you've done here is ignore that you were wrong and repeat the same argument.

If you want to actually take the high road, you can start by retracting your previous remarks about mp3 compression.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
I prefer using the amps for the reasons given before.... and again, given that sound in general is an individual thing, I can't say I feel bad that anyone might disagree with my opinion, no matter how difficult it may be for a person to express their disagreement in a cordial manner.
The reasons you gave in your previous post were utterly false. While preference is an individual thing, that doesn't mean you should be giving people bad advice, nor making false statements. You can certainly prefer to believe something that is wrong, but I must insist that you refrain from deceiving others. Some people are actually interested in good audio and not just defending their dogmatic opinions against reality.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
You find what suits you, and you go with it.
And apparently in your case, you then try to disingenuously justify your choice to others.

  #33  
Old 03-14-2009, 01:36 AM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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I see. You must be the professor around here. No doubt many have suffered for daring to extend an opinion (that's a form of expression that is typically allowed in a free society) that you do not share, so your tactics in response appear to be ridicule and bullying. I don't respect such tactics, and I don't take kindly to anyone that uses putdowns in place of sound argument.
Incidentally, "taking the high road" is a phrase used when one wishes to respond to a comment but does not wish to do so in as impolite a manner as was given in that comment. Or to put it more simply (to insure that I'm understood this time): I ignored the foul-tempered nonsense written by you and attempted to continue the conversation in a civilized manner, something you appear incapable of. What a shame. There probably could have been a useful exchange of information, but you had to go the bully route.
As for my comment on mp3: that format is known as the most lossy. "Lossy" means, among other things, a loss of detail. An amp does not bring back that lost detail, but it does allow for limited amplification of the adjoining details, which give a "fuller" experience to the listener.
Now, don't bother replying, because anything further from either of us at this point would be a waste of time. The OP has certainly lost interest (as have I) and the only thing you can do is further cement the notion that you have a severe lack of self control.

  #34  
Old 03-14-2009, 05:58 AM
Enigmatic Enigmatic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
"Lossy" means, among other things, a loss of detail.
Not necessarily. At high bit rates—c. 175 kbps or higher according to Hydrogen Audio—MP3s are transparent: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....uiet_listening.

Quote:
An amp does not bring back that lost detail, but it does allow for limited amplification of the adjoining details, which give a "fuller" experience to the listener.
All a good amplifier does is to boost the signal. All good amplifiers will sound neutral. Please see my signature for the details. Headphone amplifiers might include, however, a signal processor that modifies the signal in a way that might please the listener. Tube-based headphone amplifiers might provide a bit of distortion that some listeners find pleasant. All else being equal, music played louder will, within reason, sound better—e.g., equal-loudness contours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour.

  #35  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:05 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
I see. You must be the professor around here.
So much for the high road, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
No doubt many have suffered for daring to extend an opinion (that's a form of expression that is typically allowed in a free society) that you do not share, so your tactics in response appear to be ridicule and bullying.
Opinions are fine, and I haven't bullied you. Whats not fine is posting misinformation. Your opinions stop when you try to make factual statements.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
I don't respect such tactics, and I don't take kindly to anyone that uses putdowns in place of sound argument.
I've presented you with several arguments, none of which you have responded to. I'm sorry me pointing out that you're not making any sense hurts your feelings, but that doesn't give you a free pass to post incorrect and misleading advice.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
Or to put it more simply (to insure that I'm understood this time): I ignored the foul-tempered nonsense written by you and attempted to continue the conversation in a civilized manner, something you appear incapable of.
My response was in good temper. You just didn't like it.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
There probably could have been a useful exchange of information, but you had to go the bully route.
Why do you keep throwing out insults instead of arguments?

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
"Lossy" means, among other things, a loss of detail.
False. No loss of detail is necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
An amp does not bring back that lost detail, but it does allow for limited amplification of the adjoining details,
False.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
which give a "fuller" experience to the listener.
False.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
Now, don't bother replying, because anything further from either of us at this point would be a waste of time. The OP has certainly lost interest (as have I) and the only thing you can do is further cement the notion that you have a severe lack of self control.
lol

  #36  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:39 PM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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Originally Posted by Enigmatic View Post
Not necessarily. At high bit rates—c. 175 kbps or higher according to Hydrogen Audio—MP3s are transparent: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....uiet_listening.



All a good amplifier does is to boost the signal. All good amplifiers will sound neutral. Please see my signature for the details. Headphone amplifiers might include, however, a signal processor that modifies the signal in a way that might please the listener. Tube-based headphone amplifiers might provide a bit of distortion that some listeners find pleasant. All else being equal, music played louder will, within reason, sound better—e.g., equal-loudness contours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour.
I see what you're saying. I don't have an explanation, then, for the difference I hear, since I don't use the amp for "louder" audio. All I can say is that "details" - voices in the background, such as band members talking to each other, or clarity in piano notes - are easily heard by me when using the amp, while those things are muddy or not heard on the DAP alone. To my ears (and again, I have a bad case of tinnitus) the plain DAP sounds "flat" and lifeless, while the amp, at roughly the same volume level as was used on the plain vanilla, sounds fuller, lifelike, and.... well, detailed.
I don't know Hydrogen Audio (yet) but I'll look at your reference. Mine was taken from the "conventional wisdom" regarding mp3 vs. the lossless formats as commonly seen all over the net. If they have a different take I'm more than interested! And thanks.

  #37  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:40 PM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
So much for the high road, huh?



Opinions are fine, and I haven't bullied you. Whats not fine is posting misinformation. Your opinions stop when you try to make factual statements.



I've presented you with several arguments, none of which you have responded to. I'm sorry me pointing out that you're not making any sense hurts your feelings, but that doesn't give you a free pass to post incorrect and misleading advice.



My response was in good temper. You just didn't like it.



Why do you keep throwing out insults instead of arguments?



False. No loss of detail is necessary.



False.



False.



lol
There. You've had the last word.

  #38  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:44 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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I see what you're saying. I don't have an explanation, then, for the difference I hear, since I don't use the amp for "louder" audio.
Fortunately, I do. I've seen this a hundred times.

Its called the placebo effect. You think you should hear a difference, the volume changes, and you decide thats a difference. I've fallen for it myself.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
All I can say is that "details" - voices in the background, such as band members talking to each other, or clarity in piano notes - are easily heard by me when using the amp, while those things are muddy or not heard on the DAP alone.
You probably don't have the volume matched. Louder sounds are easier to hear then quiet ones.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
I don't know Hydrogen Audio (yet) but I'll look at your reference. Mine was taken from the "conventional wisdom" regarding mp3 vs. the lossless formats as commonly seen all over the net.
Your conventional wisdom is just plain wrong, and I expect a retraction and apology for spreading such falsehoods.

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Originally Posted by Sansasensei View Post
There. You've had the last word.
?

  #39  
Old 03-14-2009, 09:13 PM
Alohamora Alohamora is offline
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Originally Posted by claphands View Post
I've searched around and can't really figure out if anyone is using any high impedance head phones with the fuse.

I'm planning on getting new headphones and the fuse at the same time (if the player arrives first I have px 100s that will work fine) and I've basically decided on the Sennheiser HD280 pros and the 8gb Fuze (or a smaller version with the expansion) but I want to make sure this setup won't require an amp.

Question is will I need a headphone amp to drive the 64 ohm HD280s? If I decided to get a clip instead are the audio specs EXACTLY the same in tis respect?

This Thread didn't seem to have any consensus, but I figured the HD280s are popular headphones so maybe one of yall knows.

Full specs of the headphones (though I don't understand all of it):
Transducer: Dynamic
Frequency response: 8 Hz - 25 kHz
Characteristic SPL: 113 dB (at 1 kHz/1Vrms)
THD: <0.1%
Nominal impedance: 64 Ohms

Thanks for any help you can give me.
I usually use my HD280s with my PC, but since you asked, I tried them with the Fuze, with and without an amp. There is very little difference.

There are other headphones that benefit much more from amping with the fuze, but don't worry about the 280s.

  #40  
Old 03-14-2009, 11:02 PM
Sansasensei Sansasensei is offline
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Originally Posted by Enigmatic View Post
Not necessarily. At high bit rates—c. 175 kbps or higher according to Hydrogen Audio—MP3s are transparent: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....uiet_listening.



All a good amplifier does is to boost the signal. All good amplifiers will sound neutral. Please see my signature for the details. Headphone amplifiers might include, however, a signal processor that modifies the signal in a way that might please the listener. Tube-based headphone amplifiers might provide a bit of distortion that some listeners find pleasant. All else being equal, music played louder will, within reason, sound better—e.g., equal-loudness contours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour.
OK... having read thru all the references you've mentioned, I still don't get the point, unfortunately. While I certainly appreciate the science in all of this, and your level of expertise is obvious, I (think) I know what I'm hearing.
So, I guess that rather than trying to analyze it, I'll just enjoy it while I can...
Thank you for the refs.

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