Does a Sansa Fuze need an amp? (64 ohms)

[Sansasensei]

Since one or more of my comments about mp3 were called into question, I thought I'd see what Wikipedia says:
"The use in MP3 of a lossy compression algorithm is designed to greatly reduce the amount of data required to represent the audio recording and still sound like a faithful reproduction of the original uncompressed audio for most listeners, but is not considered high fidelity audio by audiophiles. An MP3 file that is created using the mid-range bit rate setting of 128 kbit/s will result in a file that is typically about 1/10th the size of the CD file created from the original audio source. An MP3 file can also be constructed at higher or lower bit rates, with higher or lower resulting quality. The compression works by reducing accuracy of certain parts of sound that are deemed beyond the auditory resolution ability of most people. This method is commonly referred to as perceptual coding.[1] It internally provides a representation of sound within a short term time/frequency analysis window, by using psychoacoustic models to discard or reduce precision of components less audible to human hearing, and recording the remaining information in an efficient manner. This is relatively similar to the principles used by JPEG, an image compression format.
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When performing lossy audio encoding, such as creating an MP3 file, there is a trade-off between the amount of space used and the sound quality of the result.
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In a listening test, MP3 encoders at low bit rates performed significantly worse than those using more modern compression methods (such as AAC). In a 2004 public listening test at 32 kbit/s,[22] the LAME MP3 encoder scored only 1.79/5 — behind all modern encoders — with Nero Digital HE AAC scoring 3.30/5.
Perceived quality can be influenced by listening environment (ambient noise), listener attention, and listener training and in most cases by listener audio equipment (such as sound cards, speakers and headphones)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3

Certainly not the final word on the subject, but it reflects what is commonly known and/or believed about the mp3 format.
BTW, the last section I quoted refers to the LAME encoder from the Hydrogenaudio reference made earlier by another poster.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by Sansasensei

Certainly not the final word on the subject, but it reflects what is commonly known and/or believed about the mp3 format.
BTW, the last section I quoted refers to the LAME encoder from the Hydrogenaudio reference made earlier by another poster.

Those are both pretty ok sources. I wrote a bunch of codec stuff on there, and I go through every so often and clean it up.

Of course, since you're already arguing with me, you could have just asked.

[serialtoon]

Originally Posted by claphands

I've searched around and can't really figure out if anyone is using any high impedance head phones with the fuse.

I'm planning on getting new headphones and the fuse at the same time (if the player arrives first I have px 100s that will work fine) and I've basically decided on the Sennheiser HD280 pros and the 8gb Fuze (or a smaller version with the expansion) but I want to make sure this setup won't require an amp.

Question is will I need a headphone amp to drive the 64 ohm HD280s? If I decided to get a clip instead are the audio specs EXACTLY the same in tis respect?

This Thread didn't seem to have any consensus, but I figured the HD280s are popular headphones so maybe one of yall knows.

Full specs of the headphones (though I don't understand all of it):
Transducer: Dynamic
Frequency response: 8 Hz - 25 kHz
Characteristic SPL: 113 dB (at 1 kHz/1Vrms)
THD: <0.1%
Nominal impedance: 64 Ohms

Thanks for any help you can give me.

I have the same setup and you will need an amp. Just get the fiio, its like 20$ and it has rechargeable batteries.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by serialtoon

I have the same setup and you will need an amp. Just get the fiio, its like 20$ and it has rechargeable batteries.

Don't talk about things you don't understand.

[serialtoon]

Originally Posted by saratoga

Don't talk about things you don't understand.

Serious? I have the HD280's and the Fuze. You will get sound from them, but an amp is required to power it correctly. First time in this forum i run into a troll.

[Chop4life]

Originally Posted by saratoga

Don't talk about things you don't understand.

I understand that u have a serious hate with other people using amps.. do you use one?

Now go listen on a pair of yuin G1A with the fuze and tell me that it doesnt require an amp.. i will haha all day long.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by serialtoon

Serious? I have the HD280's and the Fuze. You will get sound from them, but an amp is required to power it correctly.

Incorrect.

Originally Posted by serialtoon

First time in this forum i run into a troll.

Read thread.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by Chop4life

I understand that u have a serious hate with other people using amps.. do you use one?

You misunderstand. I take issue with people making things up.

Originally Posted by Chop4life

Now go listen on a pair of yuin G1A with the fuze and tell me that it doesnt require an amp..

Again you misunderstand, I said the HD-280 Pro does not require an amp.

However, looking at the specs for the yuin G1A, I'd say it'll probably be ok without an amp, though you may not get the kind of volume you want out of it. Probably a tossup, since the internal amp on the Fuze has more then enough power, but you never know exactly how honest the manufactorer's sensitivity spec really is.

[ClieOS]

Does Fuze need an amp with most easy-to-drive headphones out there? Probably not. Will Fuze's SQ benefits from using a good quality portable amp? Yes, I do think so (especially when you are using the line-out signal). For the least, I see no harm to SQ. Fuze internal amp section's SQ is great, but it is still no match of a dedicated portable amp.

Originally Posted by saratoga

However, looking at the specs for the yuin G1A, I'd say it'll probably be ok without an amp, though you may not get the kind of volume you want out of it. Probably a tossup, since the internal amp on the Fuze has more then enough power, but you never know exactly how honest the manufactorer's sensitivity spec really is.

Yep, about the G1A - I do have the G1 (G1A is G1 tuned for better bass response), and it is very demanding. You can of course drive it very loud with Fuze or a cheap portable amp (like a cmoy). but it doesn't mean it will sound good (similar case of the AKG K701s). It requires at least a good portable amp* or even a destop headphone amp to sound at its best - that part you can't tell from its spec. You'll have to listen first to know.

*I am using a Meier Audio Corda 3MOVE with G1 now, My older Practical Devices' XM3 (AD8620) can't even make it sounds decent.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by ClieOS

Does Fuze need an amp with most easy-to-drive headphones out there? Probably not.

Why "probably" not? If you know what you're talking about, just say yes or no. This is not a difficult question.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

Will Fuze's SQ benefits from using a good quality portable amp? Yes, I do think so (especially when you are using the line-out signal). For the least, I see no harm to SQ.

Actually, using a cheap portable amp (as was suggested in this thread) will likely degrade sound at least a little. Particularly when the recommended amp (Fiio) puts out roughly the same amount of power as Fuze. In that case you're just adding noise without any actual gain.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

You can of course drive it very loud with Fuze or a cheap portable amp (like a cmoy). but it doesn't mean it will sound good (similar case of the AKG K701s).

It pretty much does actually, at least with the Fuze. See the RMAA plots, those are done with the amp at essentially max voltage with very low current, same as when driving a high impedance pair of cans.

This isn't true of other DAPs though.

[ClieOS]

Originally Posted by saratoga

Why "probably" not? If you know what you're talking about, just say yes or no. This is not a difficult question.

It IS a difficult question to answer, and that is from my experience after auditioning / reviewing many headphones.

First of, it is not a universal rule that easy-to-drive headphone will sound at best with low output source (Fuze, in this case). As I have given the example of AKG K701s - not difficult to drive, but only sound good when pairing with a very beefy amp. Another example will be Head-Direct RE0, not very difficult-to-drive as well but only performs at its best when amped. One IEM that I am currently reviewing, the s-JAYS, shows significant improvement when amped. Those are just a very minor few (in the ten of hundreds of headphones currently in the market) that actually not difficult-to-drive yet sound at its best when amped - hense 'probably', casue not many headphone users will have a chance to own or listen to one of them, even less of them will own one with a good amp pairing with Fuze.

Originally Posted by saratoga

Actually, using a cheap portable amp (as was suggested in this thread) will likely degrade sound at least a little. Particularly when the recommended amp (Fiio) puts out roughly the same amount of power as Fuze. In that case you're just adding noise without any actual gain.

I don't disagree with your point that E3 could degrade SQ - than again, I did say 'good quality portable amp' in my previous reply.

One thing that E3 has and many users seems to enjoy is its warm sound and the fixed bass boost. Your average listeners might just want that little warmish bassy sound even if the overall SQ does suffer (as long as it is not too much) - there is no account for taste.

Originally Posted by saratoga

It pretty much does actually, at least with the Fuze. See the RMAA plots, those are done with the amp at essentially max voltage with very low current, same as when driving a high impedance pair of cans.

After listening G1 straight from my Fuze than compare it to Fuze + 3MOVE, I think I will trust my ear over RMAA when judging for SQ. Measurement is an indication of what can sound good, but it doesn't actually tell people what sounds good. I do want to say that I am using Fuze's line-out signal with 3MOVE, and the line-out is already better in SQ compared to headphone-out. I am not saying that the LO + amp is vastly better than HP, but there are still noticeable difference if you A/B them (volume matched of course).

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by ClieOS

It IS a difficult question to answer, and that is from my experience after auditioning / reviewing many headphones.

Not really. You've got the specs for the headphones. You've got the specs for the Fuze's amp. Crunch the numbers.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

First of, it is not a universal rule that easy-to-drive headphone will sound at best with low output source (Fuze, in this case).

Thats not a rule at all. Its not even true in specific cases. Why would a low power source sound better then a higher power source?

Originally Posted by ClieOS

I don't disagree with your point that E3 could degrade SQ - than again, I did say 'good quality portable amp' in my previous reply.

Well ok, but make it clear that you mean that. The argument in this thread is that adding a $15 amp will make the Fuze sound better. I'm saying thats bullshit.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

One thing that E3 has and many users seems to enjoy is its warm sound and the fixed bass boost. Your average listeners might just want that little warmish bassy sound even if the overall SQ does suffer (as long as it is not too much) - there is no account for taste.

Of course, having 3dB of bass boost could be nice (though its so little I hardly think its worth caring about), but you don't "need" 3dB of boost. You might want it (though personally I think its useless), but you don't need it.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

After listening G1 straight from my Fuze than compare it to Fuze + 3MOVE, I think I will trust my ear over RMAA when judging for SQ.

Why? RMAA is orders of magnitude more sensitive then your ears. Any difference you can hear will be readily visible in RMAA. The opposite is also true.

Not to mention I doubt you have either the hardware nor experience to properly conduct a double blind listening test of analog gear:

How did you equalize volume between tests?
Do you have proper hardware for quick, blinding switching of sources?

[Chop4life]

Originally Posted by saratoga

Well ok, but make it clear that you mean that. The argument in this thread is that adding a $15 amp will make the Fuze sound better. I'm saying thats bullshit.

Ok.... instead of hitting the same key everytime... why dont u recommend him an amp that will work with his set up?
Adding a $15 amp will make some headphones sound better, not make the Fuze sound better... just fyi.
If that Fiio amp is crap, i wonder why its getting A+ reviews on head-fi?

[samueljesusfreak]

Originally Posted by saratoga

Not really. You've got the specs for the headphones. You've got the specs for the Fuze's amp. Crunch the numbers.

Ok. This isn't some mathematical equation. This is a listening experience. Some users are gonna have different tastes, and I have no idea why this is an argument.

[Marvin the Martian]

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by Chop4life

Ok.... instead of hitting the same key everytime... why dont u recommend him an amp that will work with his set up?

Because no such amp exists.

(Read the thread this is like the 5th time I've said this)

Originally Posted by Chop4life

Adding a $15 amp will make some headphones sound better, not make the Fuze sound better... just fyi.

I also already explained this.

Originally Posted by Chop4life

If that Fiio amp is crap, i wonder why its getting A+ reviews on head-fi?

Hahaha yeah I wonder why

[ClieOS]

Originally Posted by saratoga

Not really. You've got the specs for the headphones. You've got the specs for the Fuze's amp. Crunch the numbers.

Thats not a rule at all. Its not even true in specific cases. Why would a low power source sound better then a higher power source?

All I can tell you is, that is what my ears tell me over and over again from auditioning. I can only suggest that If you have a chance, go to a Head-fi meet (or any headphone users gathering) and use some of the high-end stuffs there, than perhaps you will reach the same conclusion I have - no guarantee though.

Originally Posted by saratoga

Well ok, but make it clear that you mean that. The argument in this thread is that adding a $15 amp will make the Fuze sound better. I'm saying thats bullshit.

If you haven't noticed, I was referring to Fuze + 'good quality portable amp' in my original post. Most of the later half of this thread seems to evolve around whether amping helps, instead of whether E3 helps - hence I made a more general statement about amp, but not E3.

Originally Posted by saratoga

Of course, having 3dB of bass boost could be nice (though its so little I hardly think its worth caring about), but you don't "need" 3dB of boost. You might want it (though personally I think its useless), but you don't need it.

Again, I agree... and I did use the word 'want' last time

Originally Posted by saratoga

Why? RMAA is orders of magnitude more sensitive then your ears. Any difference you can hear will be readily visible in RMAA. The opposite is also true....

Knowing the fact that everyone's ears have a different 'internal' frequency response to sound wave and actually hear thing differently from what a mic can pick up or a machine can measured - I think RMAA does not in a realistic way reflects what a person are hearing, and most specificly, what a person enjoy hearing. Harmonic distrotion for an example, can be pleasurable to a person ears in some situation - that's why some people will not give up using tube amp eventhough solid stage amp are far more precise.

Oh, and you are right, I don't have any professional tools here to do precise volume matching, fine measurement or flipping from one source to another in a double blind test - but I do have my trusty ears to tell me what sounds good or not and that's all enough for me. After all, what else do I need to enjoy music?

If using an E3 with Fuze makes the listener happy, why not?

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by samueljesusfreak

Ok. This isn't some mathematical equation. This is a listening experience. Some users are gonna have different tastes, and I have no idea why this is an argument.

This is the same dumb crap you posted before. It didn't mean anything then, and it doesn't now.

This isn't about preference. Its not about taste. We're discussing which amps have enough power and current to drive what loads. People bringing taste into it are idiots. No one prefers an amp that doesn't have enough power. No one prefers one quality amp with too much power to another quality amp with equally sufficient power. It doesn't work like that. Either you pick an amp capable of driving a load, or you do not. Either you are properly driving your headphones and getting the sound they are designed to produce, or you are not.

Arguments about preference, or obscure pairs of headphones, or audio formats are just fools trying to look smart. But the truth is no one with a hint of sense believes that an amp makes MP3s sound better, but won't improve flac. You literally have to have no idea what an amp does to believe that. No one with sense believes you can hear a current limited amp before you can pick up the THD. You'd have to have no idea what happens to when you overload an amp to believe that.

People just throw that crap out to try and cover for the fact that deep down they don't know what amps are actually for and don't want to learn, but for some unfathomable reason still really want to talk about them. Its not even that they're liars, its just that they're too proud of their phony opinions and made up "facts" to admit they're wrong.

[saratoga]

Originally Posted by ClieOS

All I can tell you is, that is what my ears tell me over and over again from auditioning.

And with that the back peddling begins!

Why is it so hard for you people to admit you're wrong? To admit that in reality you dont' know what makes certain hardware need an amp, and others not? I mean its clear as day you were just guessing before. Why can't you admit it?

Originally Posted by ClieOS

I can only suggest that If you have a chance, go to a Head-fi meet (or any headphone users gathering) and use some of the high-end stuffs there, than perhaps you will reach the same conclusion I have - no guarantee though.

Yes why wouldn't I want to go hang out with a bunch of ignorant children.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

If you haven't noticed, I was referring to Fuze + 'good quality portable amp' in my original post. Most of the later half of this thread seems to evolve around whether amping helps, instead of whether E3 helps - hence I made a more general statement about amp, but not E3.

Why would you think I didn't notice? The text you quoted has me explicitly acknowledging that I noticed.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

Knowing the fact that everyone's ears have a different 'internal' frequency response to sound wave

Irrelevant.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

and actually hear thing differently from what a mic can pick up or a machine can measured

We're not talking about mics. We're talking about an ADC recording signals. For our purposes, these can assumed to be perfect. So the ADC is recording everything. Your ears are different because they're not recording everything due to their extremely limited time/bandwidth product.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

- I think RMAA does not in a realistic way reflects what a person are hearing,

It doesn't reflect it at all. Its not meant to. Serious question:

Do you know what RMAA measures? I mean this seriously.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

and most specificly, what a person enjoy hearing. Harmonic distrotion for an example, can be pleasurable to a person ears in some situation - that's why some people will not give up using tube amp eventhough solid stage amp are far more precise.

Haha this is great. I type out a whole paragraph explaining how the only people who talk about their preferences in amps are idiots who are trying to avoid admitting they are wrong, and you give me this just minutes later.

Originally Posted by ClieOS

Oh, and you are right, I don't have any professional tools here to do precise volume matching, fine measurement or flipping from one source to another in a double blind test

Then your results are faulty and you've wasted my time telling me about them.

[Chop4life]

Originally Posted by saratoga

If using an E3 with Fuze makes the listener happy, why not?

Dont worry, It made dfkt happy when he used the E3 on his review

although one person doesnt think so...