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  #21  
Old 05-31-2009, 09:54 AM
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320Kbps CBR is not a good idea.
MP3 VBR V0 is better for the quality/size rate
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  #22  
Old 05-31-2009, 01:11 PM
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Because of the P3's upscaling, I've re-encoded from MP3 and Flac to 128Kbit Constant. In the process I've also used Sound Solution 1.31b dsp in winamp, then re-encoded with Lame 3.98 using the lame out plugin for winamp.

I'm currently testing a VST multiband processor but I still find Sound Solution to do a superior job. The advantages of the VST method is that I can use DBpoweramp to convert music. The Sound Solution only works with winamp playing the music in real time. So a 5 minute song takes 5 minutes to re-encode as it plays.

To put this in perspective, encoding 926 songs via winamp took me about 32 hours and made my machine unsuable during that time. Using DBpoweramp's Music Converter with the VST, it's only taken 15 hours to do the same 926 tracks and the machine was still usable even if a touch slow. (Single core CPU)

The processor puts all the music at the same output level. Old CD's from the 80's tend to be much quieter than new CD's from the late 90's onwards. The processor puts them all at the same db output without destroying the song if the settings are right. This solves having to constantly turn up and down the volume as it goes from song to song.

Anyway, after the processing, I re-encode into the 128Kb/s Constant w/ Lame 3.98. Then the P3 upscales the highs and boosts the bass very nicely and gives me fabulous sound from what normally is rather crappy high end 128Kb/s mp3's.

Any other player, I would need to rip and encode everything at 192Kb constant as a minimum, or do 320-32Kb/s variable bit rate (preferred setting).

I also force Joint Stereo for any extra little space savings it can get from that.

Also note that converting a 128Kbit constant into ANY setting above 128K really trashes the track. It can NOT add back what is not there and the top end highly pays for this. So much in fact that even Samsung's upscaler can't fix it.
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  #23  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
Because of the P3's upscaling, I've re-encoded from MP3 and Flac to 128Kbit Constant. In the process I've also used Sound Solution 1.31b dsp in winamp, then re-encoded with Lame 3.98 using the lame out plugin for winamp.

I'm currently testing a VST multiband processor but I still find Sound Solution to do a superior job. The advantages of the VST method is that I can use DBpoweramp to convert music. The Sound Solution only works with winamp playing the music in real time. So a 5 minute song takes 5 minutes to re-encode as it plays.

To put this in perspective, encoding 926 songs via winamp took me about 32 hours and made my machine unsuable during that time. Using DBpoweramp's Music Converter with the VST, it's only taken 15 hours to do the same 926 tracks and the machine was still usable even if a touch slow. (Single core CPU)

The processor puts all the music at the same output level. Old CD's from the 80's tend to be much quieter than new CD's from the late 90's onwards. The processor puts them all at the same db output without destroying the song if the settings are right. This solves having to constantly turn up and down the volume as it goes from song to song.

Anyway, after the processing, I re-encode into the 128Kb/s Constant w/ Lame 3.98. Then the P3 upscales the highs and boosts the bass very nicely and gives me fabulous sound from what normally is rather crappy high end 128Kb/s mp3's.

Any other player, I would need to rip and encode everything at 192Kb constant as a minimum, or do 320-32Kb/s variable bit rate (preferred setting).

I also force Joint Stereo for any extra little space savings it can get from that.

Also note that converting a 128Kbit constant into ANY setting above 128K really trashes the track. It can NOT add back what is not there and the top end highly pays for this. So much in fact that even Samsung's upscaler can't fix it.

LOL
With all that artifical processing, why not just re-rip the disc?
1+1 can never equal 3 no matter how processing makes it appear to be.
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  #24  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:54 PM
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I think my head just exploded.
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  #25  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:57 PM
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Screw that.. The P3 is a superb DAP but it's not going to make shit sound any different.
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  #26  
Old 05-31-2009, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
Because of the P3's upscaling, I've re-encoded from MP3 and Flac to 128Kbit Constant. In the process I've also used Sound Solution 1.31b dsp in winamp, then re-encoded with Lame 3.98 using the lame out plugin for winamp.

I'm currently testing a VST multiband processor but I still find Sound Solution to do a superior job. The advantages of the VST method is that I can use DBpoweramp to convert music. The Sound Solution only works with winamp playing the music in real time. So a 5 minute song takes 5 minutes to re-encode as it plays.

To put this in perspective, encoding 926 songs via winamp took me about 32 hours and made my machine unsuable during that time. Using DBpoweramp's Music Converter with the VST, it's only taken 15 hours to do the same 926 tracks and the machine was still usable even if a touch slow. (Single core CPU)

The processor puts all the music at the same output level. Old CD's from the 80's tend to be much quieter than new CD's from the late 90's onwards. The processor puts them all at the same db output without destroying the song if the settings are right. This solves having to constantly turn up and down the volume as it goes from song to song.

Anyway, after the processing, I re-encode into the 128Kb/s Constant w/ Lame 3.98. Then the P3 upscales the highs and boosts the bass very nicely and gives me fabulous sound from what normally is rather crappy high end 128Kb/s mp3's.

Any other player, I would need to rip and encode everything at 192Kb constant as a minimum, or do 320-32Kb/s variable bit rate (preferred setting).

I also force Joint Stereo for any extra little space savings it can get from that.

Also note that converting a 128Kbit constant into ANY setting above 128K really trashes the track. It can NOT add back what is not there and the top end highly pays for this. So much in fact that even Samsung's upscaler can't fix it.
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  #27  
Old 05-31-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Bad View Post
LOL
With all that artifical processing, why not just re-rip the disc?
1+1 can never equal 3 no matter how processing makes it appear to be.
rerip the disc is the same as converting from FLAC.

The reprocess is from either flac or higher bitrate mp3's (aka I don't have the disc).

The re-encode is to shrink filesize.

The compressor/limiter/expander agc dsp is to remaster the sound so that old and new are equal. Something straight cd ripping will not do.

With all this done, it sounds pretty good overall because of DNSe 3.0.

So in reality it's either encoded to mp3 once or twice depending on my source.

Any more than twice and the track is too far gone for decent sound.

For audio files, only flac will do and the upscaler and the bass enhancement mean nil on such files. Also memory space is severly limited being file size is anywhere from 3 to 12 times larger.
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  #28  
Old 05-31-2009, 07:43 PM
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You might want to look into Replaygain or MP3Gain for loudness matching. It's a very easy and non-destructive fix.
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  #29  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamnine View Post
Screw that.. The P3 is a superb DAP but it's not going to make shit sound any different.
Actually it does. That's the nice part about DNSe 3.0 with it's upscaler. It puts back the high end that making an mp3, aac and even ogg vorbis destroys.

The only way not to destroy the high end is to use a lossless format such as FLAC, APE or WMA Lossless. But file size is anywhere from 3 to 12 times larger.

This is the very nice part about Samsung and all their research into Audio and the trashing of the sound via MP3/AAC and other lossy encoding.
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  #30  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:05 PM
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As soon as you said you reencoded Flac to 128kbps MP3, you're post became halarious from then on.
I don't mean to call you out on your knowlege of encoding and re-encoding music. But the stuff you've said does leave one to beleive you don't understand what your doing. Maybe I missunderstood you, maybe you made a type-o somewhere, maybe you do know for a fact what your doing.

I guess some of us handle our music with extreme care, and have specific methods that we follow religiously when it comes to encoding music. And you've strayed so far from that path....its almost too scary. I admit I've reencoded Lossless formats to MP3, but I always leave the bitrates high, no lower than V0, but 128??? Dude!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
Actually it does. That's the nice part about DNSe 3.0 with it's upscaler. It puts back the high end that making an mp3, aac and even ogg vorbis destroys.

The only way not to destroy the high end is to use a lossless format such as FLAC, APE or WMA Lossless. But file size is anywhere from 3 to 12 times larger.

This is the very nice part about Samsung and all their research into Audio and the trashing of the sound via MP3/AAC and other lossy encoding.
DNSe 3.0 does help to an extent, but you really should not be relying on it. If you have low quality MP3s fine, but don't destroy your high quality stuff thinking that DNSe 3.0 will always save the day. It only works to an extent.
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Last edited by Leroy Bad; 05-31-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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  #31  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
You might want to look into Replaygain or MP3Gain for loudness matching. It's a very easy and non-destructive fix.
True but not all "players" recognize replay gain, such as my phone.

Not sure if the P3 makes use of replay gain tags or not. Haven't seen much documentation concerning that.
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  #32  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Bad View Post


As soon as you said you reencoded Flac to 128kbps MP3, you're post became halarious from then on.
I don't mean to call you out on your knowlege of encoding and re-encoding music. But the stuff you've said does leave one to beleive you don't understand what your doing. Maybe I missunderstood you, maybe you made a type somewhere, may be you do know for a fact what your doing.

I guess some of us handle our music with extreme care, and have specific methods that we follow religiously when it comes to encoding music. And you've strayed so far from that path....is almost scary.
So essentially you refuse to use ANY lossy format?

I still use MP3's for file size management, doesn't mean I dispose of the original flac or ape files, or my CD's for that matter. You imply that I destroy the originals once I make the very lossy 128Kbit mp3. That would be assinine. But it still doesn't mean I can't utilize the format to the best of my and the P3's ability, get darn near the same sound quality as you with your lossless on the P3 yet get nearly 4000 tracks on my 16 gig instead of a mere 300 songs of your flac.

I don't get how you can say I am careless in how I manage tunes for portability.
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  #33  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
True but not all "players" recognize replay gain, such as my phone.

Not sure if the P3 makes use of replay gain tags or not. Haven't seen much documentation concerning that.
True, Replaygain utilizes tags that aren't recognized by every player, but MP3Gain works universally. It writes the loudness information to every frame of the MP3 file, with an additional tag for undo information. Every player in existence works with MP3Gain.

Another thing is that CBR is really the worst thing you could do to your files, especially at those low bit rates. 128k CBR uses not enough bits for passages that need more information, and uses too many bits for passages that could save you some file size. VBR would be the much better way to go.
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  #34  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Bad View Post
DNSe 3.0 does help to an extent, but you really should not be relying on it. If you have low quality MP3s fine, but don't detroy your high quality stuff thinking that DNSe 3.0 will save the day.

Once again, you imply I am deleting the originals or the high quality files which is far from the truth.

The re-encoded to low bitrate is purely for portabliity on my phone or the P3.

And I'm claiming from use of the P3 that the upscaler and DNSe 3.0 does a MARVELOUS job of returning the sound that the mp3 trashed.

And I'm thinking you don't understand what a the Sound Solution DSP is doing either yet anytime you listen to the radio you get the same processed sound. And most Inet radio stations use the same processes. That's why you don't ever have to turn up or down your radio when the track changes.

This thread and forum was concerning the P3 as far as I understood thus I explained what I encode my tracks at FOR the P3.

So please stop ridiculing me and my process for the P3 and my cell phone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I do and it works damn well as an ex broadcaster, I do know a thing or two.
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  #35  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
Once again, you imply I am deleting the originals or the high quality files which is far from the truth.

The re-encoded to low bitrate is purely for portabliity on my phone or the P3.

And I'm claiming from use of the P3 that the upscaler and DNSe 3.0 does a MARVELOUS job of returning the sound that the mp3 trashed.

And I'm thinking you don't understand what a the Sound Solution DSP is doing either yet anytime you listen to the radio you get the same processed sound. And most Inet radio stations use the same processes. That's why you don't ever have to turn up or down your radio when the track changes.

This thread and forum was concerning the P3 as far as I understood thus I explained what I encode my tracks at FOR the P3.

So please stop ridiculing me and my process for the P3 and my cell phone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I do and it works damn well as an ex broadcaster, I do know a thing or two.

LOL
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  #36  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
True, Replaygain utilizes tags that aren't recognized by every player, but MP3Gain works universally. It writes the loudness information to every frame of the MP3 file, with an additional tag for undo information.
Ahhh so mp3gain then modifies the sound wave just as my soundsolution technique but probably not in quite the complex fashion a compressor/limiter/expander with AGC and pre-emphasis and clipper will.

Essentially the same concept, but my method is more complex and from an ex-broadcaster point of view and experience.
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  #37  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:26 PM
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The keyword is "non destructive" with MP3Gain... it doesn't really alter the file, but the players recognize the volume changes. Just read the infos on the MP3Gain site.

I'm no broadcaster, but I'm an audio engineer, and MP3Gain sure is something that I like very much, theoretically and in practice.
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  #38  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Bad View Post
I edited my post with extra details about that, but I'll repeat

I admit I've reencoded Lossless formats to MP3, but I always use the high bitrates, no lower than V0, but 128??? Dude!

Its cool then that you are keeping your lossless music, and I understand your need to save space, but 128 is a bit too low for me. And all that replay gain and normalization is a no no. But thats just me
Yeah some audiophiles are like that about normalization and replay gain. They want the audio in it's rough state and probably don't like studio version at all being they are mastered and no longer rough.

I prefer studio cuts over live usually. I like the clean sound after mastering, not before. That's individual preference.

And unlike you, I don't insult you for your choices. I respect your choice and think it's fine. When I can, I go that same route even.

As for the 128Kbit, that's the equivalent of a CD in all reality. Which in itself is a lossy format at 44Khz 16 bit digital signal.

What I'm saying is that Samsung has done a really good job of making 128Kbit bearable. Before DNSe 3.0 I wouldn't encode to 128 if I could help it. It had to be 192Kbit or 320-32 variable as I said in my original post.

Now if space isn't an issue, I prefer flac hand down. Flac from vinyl ripped at 98Khz 24 bit. But the files are huge....

I'm waiting to see if we get a new music disc made from blue ray that uses at least 48KHz 24 bit at the bare minimum but that's a long ways off.

Simply, to each their own. I use 128Kbit for the P3 because it does a wonderful job with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Bad View Post
Its cool then that you are keeping your lossless music, and I understand your need to save space, but 128 is a bit too low for me. And all that replay gain and normalization is a no no. But thats just me
If you are this concerned about your "sound" then why in the world do you use ANY solid state product, you should be analog (tube) technology to get the true sound. Which of course negates portability. Not like I run my P3 through a tube amp and high end speaker systems to get every little nuance.

Last edited by TomCat39; 05-31-2009 at 08:58 PM.
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  #39  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
The keyword is "non destructive" with MP3Gain... it doesn't really alter the file, but the players recognize the volume changes. Just read the infos on the MP3Gain site.

I'm no broadcaster, but I'm an audio engineer, and MP3Gain sure is something that I like very much, theoretically and in practice.
I will definitely look into mp3 gain. It sounds like another great solution for the age old problem of old CD's to new CD's.

Thank you for the tip.
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  #40  
Old 05-31-2009, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dfkt View Post
Another thing is that CBR is really the worst thing you could do to your files, especially at those low bit rates. 128k CBR uses not enough bits for passages that need more information, and uses too many bits for passages that could save you some file size. VBR would be the much better way to go.

Missed this part sorry.

Yeah, it cuts out on the more complex areas of the song and doesn't save in the silence areas. Yet when I tried doing 128-8 variable it seemed to really crap out the songs even more so.

Overall, the 128 from CD sources has been bearable with the P3. Granted I also choose slow encoding for the higher quality with the lower bitrate. Also the tunes is used mainly at work in the warehouse, so having super high quality is a rather moot point, but the variety in tunes with the excess of great tracks isn't.

Pros and cons to everything, now if only they had terrabyte flash PMP's
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