XNA 4.0 - Not for Zune HD

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by ZuneHD

Like previously stated if Microsoft has a closed development team for the ZHD then way are we not seeing many apps? If it is really taking this long to release apps then it is time for a company to rethink its business model/approach (cough cough 3rd party development). I fail to see why the Zune HD can't have content developed by 3rd party developers. WP7 is obviously going to allow this so some form of "approval" has to be assembled in which case can't they review Zune HD games as well?

I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this point - the reason you're not seeing an open app development environment, daily volumes of new apps, etc... is because the device & team was not designed for it. With the resources we had to work on Zune HD, and knowing what was coming with WP7S, we elected to focus on innovating on the media functionality. SmartDJ, MixView, HDMI output, ArtistView, etc...

This device was not designed to compete with the open app platforms that exist today. Period.

By all means have a debate about whether that was the right thing to do. But can we please move on from "how come there aren't more apps" or "why can't I submit content to MS like I can to Apple?".

Knowing what was coming down the pipeline - and the huge investment being made in ALL of that stuff (details to be publicly announced really soon) for WP7S, it made no sense for us to duplicate the effort at the expense of a great media experience. And besides, then you all would have taken me to task for "just copying Apple". So we didn't.

Originally Posted by JJohnson

And if I may, Dave, I have just 3 questions - are y'all working on any new applications for the Zune? Are you working on apps, games, or both? Are there any 'new features' other than Smart DJ and Xvid coming in the Spring Update?

Yes, there are new apps for Zune in the pipeline. I know of both apps and games being developed, and yes there are features other than SmartDJ and Xvid that we haven't announced in the next release.

I will also say that this was a very successful GDC (just got back to Seattle tonight). There will be fruits evident from this trip.

Originally Posted by Zuniq

1) Application development might not be open to everyone, but we haven't see a systematic and professional approach on the subject of creating new apps by the people who manage application development.

Right. Exactly. My Audi also drives on dirt roads pretty well, but I haven't seen a systematic approach by them to add off-road functionality to the model A4 that I have.

That's because the vehicle wasn't designed for it. Likewise Zune HD. We built out a sufficient development kit and on-device support to release a small number of quality applications across a broad range of interests. I'm committed to expanding upon what we've delivered. But no, there is not and will not in the future, be a "systematic and professional approach" to opening up the SDK to the public. Not in the plans, not something we're resourced to do.

WP7S however? Entirely different story - look for news on that real soon.

Originally Posted by Zuniq

Specifically for games: The box has a "games" tag on it. Do you believe that this is fair for a device that has only 9 simple titles (similar to what can be found in most cheap cell phones) and only 3 advanced games which actually use the benefits of the processor?

Honestly, I do. Cell phone makers have a feature check box for "games" with fewer titles than that, and a number of those games are actually very good IMHO. If we didn't deliver another game title, I'd feel comfortable that we delivered on our promise that as a secondary feature, you could play some games on it.

But, I know that we're not done with games - so I'm especially comfortable with that tag.

Originally Posted by Zuniq

Anyway, all this talking could have been less if Microsoft was more clear about their intentions...your company always talk with "political speech" :

2) & 3) & 4)You wrote "there may well be more" about 3d applications, but you didn't write "there will be more"...so, which are the parameters that determine the future existence of these applications?

Actually, I don't think we could be clearer about our support for apps and games, at least I've been crystal clear in this forum. However, what you're asking me to do is pre-announce features before our marketing & PR team can do so in a way that maximizes the benefit and coverage for us. You all want the device to be more successful, but you also want me to blurt everything out that we're doing - it just doesn't (and can't!) work that way. Sorry guys - we have a PR manager who works his heart out and it's his job to make sure we get maximum exposure in the press. He doesn't need me short-circuiting his strategies to appease my forum buddies.

(Shoutout to @yegr - follow him on Twitter if you're interested in his daily frolics).

Originally Posted by Zuniq

5) So, if developers can have (even Microsoft managed) access to the sdk, where is the result? I bet that there are many of them who want to release apps and games for Zune HD, but i don't see anything happen. Does Microsoft deny all of their applications? Hasn't any of them tried to contact you?

Yes they have, no they're not denied, and yes we have some content currently in development. There are members of this forum that I've been speaking to - I'm just waiting for some legal work to be done and then I plan to move forward with those. They can't tell you who they are (yet) - but this process is working.

Originally Posted by weedalin

I can only imagine your frustration with not being able to disclose something, anything, besides a promise, to sate the anger of the people here.

Ya, I'd love to be able to fill you guys in top to bottom, but obviously that just isn't possible. The best I can do - and try my best TO do - is help you see the bigger picture and the business perspective. Sometimes I do okay, other times I crash and burn...

Cheers, Dave.

[CrowdAds]

[Zuniq]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions Dave...

[lem7]

I just want YouTube app and I'm good to go.

[DiNoGames]

Originally Posted by lem7

I just want YouTube app and I'm good to go.

....and you will pay the developers for making it?

[beh]

dave one question from me

Will there be anykind of improvement as far as connecting to wifi networks is concerned ? i mean , it would be kinda cool to use internet in my univercity ..
thanks

[Joshnor713]

Thanks to Dave for answering our questions and sticking with us

I do have to question though your team's work primarily going to the media aspects of the device, because I have yet to see these improvements or additions. Could you possibly explain why it's taking so long to roll this stuff out? The ZHD isn't getting any younger you know

[JJohnson]

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the answers! I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I'm glad to hear GDC was "fruitful." If I may ask another question, could you look at my post here, and can you say if one or more things from that post is going to make it to the spring update, or if it's on the roadmap for the future of the device? I'm mostly concerned with a landscape mode for menus, but if you had any other info that you're at liberty to discuss, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks again!

[Olley]

There is simple copying, and then there is improving on the past. Only Apple fanatics accuse any other touchscreen device of copying the Touch/iPhone. Most of us can appreciate the uniqueness of the Zune HD UI and how much improved it is over the Touch's UI. The Zune HD's hardware looks to be an improvement over what Apple uses, and the few games released so far hint about a greater potential. What irks me is that it is fairly obvious what makes the iPod Touch desirable, and yet the Zune team seems to be afraid to compete one-to-one. Yes, I see Dave's points about limited resources. I'll blame everyone involved, including whoever it was who allocated the budget for the Zune team, for not giving them enough to stand a chance. My Zune HD is a fine media player. Welcome to the world of Samsung and Cowon and Creative and Sansa and so on. If MS had gotten serious about the Zune HD I'd be taking IT to work instead of my iPod Touch. Leaving out simple email and contact apps to take advantage of the WiFi capability is a mortal sin. JMHO

[Icky6]

Originally Posted by Olley

There is simple copying, and then there is improving on the past. Only Apple fanatics accuse any other touchscreen device of copying the Touch/iPhone. Most of us can appreciate the uniqueness of the Zune HD UI and how much improved it is over the Touch's UI. The Zune HD's hardware looks to be an improvement over what Apple uses, and the few games released so far hint about a greater potential. What irks me is that it is fairly obvious what makes the iPod Touch desirable, and yet the Zune team seems to be afraid to compete one-to-one. Yes, I see Dave's points about limited resources. I'll blame everyone involved, including whoever it was who allocated the budget for the Zune team, for not giving them enough to stand a chance. My Zune HD is a fine media player. Welcome to the world of Samsung and Cowon and Creative and Sansa and so on. If MS had gotten serious about the Zune HD I'd be taking IT to work instead of my iPod Touch. Leaving out simple email and contact apps to take advantage of the WiFi capability is a mortal sin. JMHO

Exactly. My Zune HD is a good media player overall, but there are a lot of players that are good. I don't really care who is to blame, the Zune HD is not an especially attractive device compared to the wealth of competition that exists (imho).

And while Dave keeps saying that WP7 will have apps and all (and it does look very cool), I don't necessarily want a freaking phone and pay up the butt for a data plan. So I hope they have a ZHD2 in the works that will be to WP7 what the Touch is to the iPhone. Even then, and I think this is sort of the bottom line, fat freaking chance getting me to buy another MS portable media player. I gave them a chance, I decided to not be a lemming and just get an iPod. And they failed miserably to offer updates in a timely manner, the app releases have been of low quality (the Facebook app stutters like that's its job, the games are a complete bore) and in the end the HD does next to nothing better than my old mp3 player, at least nothing that is worth $200 for.

I dislike sounding like a petulant child, but I just want to make my view clear. Microsoft really screwed up the Zune HD.

[Icky6]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

With the resources we had to work on Zune HD, and knowing what was coming with WP7S, we elected to focus on innovating on the media functionality. SmartDJ, MixView, HDMI output, ArtistView, etc...

This device was not designed to compete with the open app platforms that exist today. Period.

I appreciate this, but imagine that the Zune HD itself had an HDMI output. That, imo, would be a great feature to say, "hey this device is all about media". Instead what was released is an overpriced dock that is either extra bulk to carry around, or just pointless because if you keep it home, you likely have the movies and shows on your computer anyway.

Mixview is also relatively meh.

SmartDJ is interesting, although it is a bit of a glorified genre-specific shuffle.

ArtistView was fun to look at for the first week.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but really, take a look at how much actual value is added by the things you mentioned.

[djca]

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

And besides, then you all would have taken me to task for "just copying Apple". So we didn't.

Really? So did you have discussions within Microsoft along the lines of "Hey, we should not have an app store on our touchscreen MP3 player that already looks similar to the iPod Touch... because we might be accused of being an Apple copycat."? I'm being facetious here, and I'm sure that's not your main reason not to have an app store on the Zune HD... but saying you don't want to be accused of copying Apple is a bit lame, when it is pretty obvious that you're following Apple.

Of course the Zune HD is not a complete copycat of the iPod Touch. In many ways, it is better than its Apple counterpart. As a late comer to this game, MS had the advantage of seeing what already is successful with the iPod Touch --- and come up with something better. But I think we can all agree that not having a Zune app store does not help Zune HD sales. That was a business decision and I can understand that.

[lip]

Originally Posted by Icky6

Exactly. My Zune HD is a good media player overall, but there are a lot of players that are good. I don't really care who is to blame, the Zune HD is not an especially attractive device compared to the wealth of competition that exists (imho).

And while Dave keeps saying that WP7 will have apps and all (and it does look very cool), I don't necessarily want a freaking phone and pay up the butt for a data plan. So I hope they have a ZHD2 in the works that will be to WP7 what the Touch is to the iPhone. Even then, and I think this is sort of the bottom line, fat freaking chance getting me to buy another MS portable media player. I gave them a chance, I decided to not be a lemming and just get an iPod. And they failed miserably to offer updates in a timely manner, the app releases have been of low quality (the Facebook app stutters like that's its job, the games are a complete bore) and in the end the HD does next to nothing better than my old mp3 player, at least nothing that is worth $200 for.

I dislike sounding like a petulant child, but I just want to make my view clear. Microsoft really screwed up the Zune HD.

We can all have opinions but the only thing they really screwed up on in my opinion was not putting the financial resources behind this product...no marketing and no international release...the media part of this player is way beyond anything else...i guess if you are an audiophile this isn't your player but this was always obvious....

They still need to make a bunch of improvements to the core media playback portion(gapless issues, channel d/ling from device, smartdj) and there are hiccups but the general overview is great.

[Joshnor713]

Yeah, the whole virtually no advertising thing really gets me. It's like they just released this device to get market's reaction to it, not really for the success.

Like I said before, guinea pigs we are.

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by beh

Will there be anykind of improvement as far as connecting to wifi networks is concerned ? i mean , it would be kinda cool to use internet in my univercity ..
thanks

Sorry beh, would love to tell you more about what is coming, but then I make other people's (@yegr) jobs harder, and thats not cool. You'll know soon enough.

Originally Posted by Joshnor713

I do have to question though your team's work primarily going to the media aspects of the device, because I have yet to see these improvements or additions. Could you possibly explain why it's taking so long to roll this stuff out? The ZHD isn't getting any younger you know

Firstly, I was talking about during the design and development phases - that's how the team prioritized work. But, since you mention it, the device is still under 6 mo old. I think our track record on firmware updates has been excellent and in the last 6 mo we've also released Zune on Xbox and additional apps (like Twitter and Facebook, not to mention the additional 3D games, PGR, etc...). We also have a firmware update coming soon too which has been keeping the troops busy, so I think your criticism is a little misplaced.

Originally Posted by JJohnson

If I may ask another question, could you look at my post here, and can you say if one or more things from that post is going to make it to the spring update, or if it's on the roadmap for the future of the device?

Sorry mate, really need to let you wait and see.

Originally Posted by Icky6

And they failed miserably to offer updates in a timely manner, the app releases have been of low quality (the Facebook app stutters like that's its job, the games are a complete bore) and in the end the HD does next to nothing better than my old mp3 player, at least nothing that is worth $200 for.

Everyone's entitled to your opinion, but I think you're being pretty unfair here. Our track record on updates is awesome - I'll stand behind that any day of the week. The app releases have been on par with our commitment - that they're a secondary feature of the product. Have we had some hiccups with Twitter and FB? Sure. But the rest have released smoothly and have been very popular.

Look, nobody can tell you what is worth $200 to you but yourself. But if you bought the product for what it was advertised to do - I argue it does those things very, very well. If you bought it for what it might do in the future - then I can't really help you. Even if I could tell you what is coming, it mightn't be enough for your particular use case...

Originally Posted by Icky6

I appreciate this, but imagine that the Zune HD itself had an HDMI output. That, imo, would be a great feature to say, "hey this device is all about media". Instead what was released is an overpriced dock that is either extra bulk to carry around, or just pointless because if you keep it home, you likely have the movies and shows on your computer anyway.

Trust me, I'd LOVE to do HDMI directly out of the device. But, the rules around HDMI require that you have an actual HDMI connector. Okay... so then we have to put two connectors on the device - HDMI and Zune? HDMI and USB? What if we don't "call it HDMI" but output those 17 data lines over our existing connector - well, then we need a new connector because we don't have 17 spare pins on our current one. But then we get hammered by customers for changing the connector. You see the problem?

The dock is required because there is circuitry to deliver the HDMI signal in the dock. And if you don't want to pay full price for the AV dock, you can buy the sync dock ($49?) and use your own HDMI cable. I think that's a pretty fair deal. And as for the suggestion that the dock is pointless because at home you can just watch TV on your computer - well, maybe in some college dorms and teenage bedrooms, but I have my dock connected to my flat screen TV and will ALWAYS choose to watch TV on a TV versus a computer screen.

Now - having said ALL that, I do agree that carrying a dock when you travel is less optimal. I'd love to see a cable that had the HDMI electronics embedded in it - but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Icky6

Mixview is also relatively meh.

In your opinion...

Originally Posted by Icky6

SmartDJ is interesting, although it is a bit of a glorified genre-specific shuffle.

Probably our most-loved feature right now.

Originally Posted by Icky6

ArtistView was fun to look at for the first week.

Also a very highly used feature.

Originally Posted by djca

Really? So did you have discussions within Microsoft along the lines of "Hey, we should not have an app store on our touchscreen MP3 player that already looks similar to the iPod Touch... because we might be accused of being an Apple copycat."?

No, I was the one being facetious. On this forum I'm either accused of copying Apple or not copying Apple enough.

Cheers, Dave.

[Icky6]

Originally Posted by lip

We can all have opinions but the only thing they really screwed up on in my opinion was not putting the financial resources behind this product...no marketing and no international release...the media part of this player is way beyond anything else...i guess if you are an audiophile this isn't your player but this was always obvious....

They still need to make a bunch of improvements to the core media playback portion(gapless issues, channel d/ling from device, smartdj) and there are hiccups but the general overview is great.

I guess that's sort of what I meant. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound too harsh there. What I mean is that the HD as a whole seems like a bit of a half-hearted effort on MS's part.. they didn't fund the team enough.

I've said it before, but I can see how if you're realllllly into just getting to music all the time, the Zune Pass makes the HD amazing. But I think for the average joe who isn't necessarily gobbling up new music all the time, the Zune Pass isn't worthwhile. And then the Zune HD is merely a solid media player with a nice UI. It seems to me that a lot of the people who are really into the HD are media enthusiasts who have the Zune Pass... which is fine if you're into that, but the Zune Pass doesn't seem to have mass-market appeal. That's why I think things like an HDMI out directly on the device would have made the HD a genuine step above the competition, without a monthly fee attached to it. More people could have appreciated a feature like that, a unique feature that only the Zune HD provided.

[Technorace]

Thanks for taking the time Dave to talk to us about this stuff. We know you don't have to and I think most of us appreciate it.

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

is because the device & team was not designed for it. With the resources we had to work on Zune HD, and knowing what was coming with WP7S, we elected to focus on innovating on the media functionality. SmartDJ, MixView, HDMI output, ArtistView, etc...

Knowing what was coming down the pipeline - and the huge investment being made in ALL of that stuff (details to be publicly announced really soon) for WP7S, it made no sense for us to duplicate the effort at the expense of a great media experience.

WP7S however? Entirely different story - look for news on that real soon.

This is confusing for we the consumer probably because what the competition is doing. When we look at the Zune HD and WP7 we don't see any big distinction between the two besides the fact that the phones have a cell radio. Can you tell us why the Zune HD can't run the WP7 OS? Can you tell us maybe after MIX after all the WP7 details come out?

Originally Posted by DaveMac-MS

we have a PR manager who works his heart out and it's his job to make sure we get maximum exposure in the press. He doesn't need me short-circuiting his strategies to appease my forum buddies.

So either you guys are getting screwed on budget or MS is just going to put most of its focus on WP7. It is frustrating for us to see such a great piece of hardware not get the push that it deserves. Look at how Engadget and Gizmodo and etc. were excited about it. And then it just kind of went away. And now it seems to us that WP7 is the important thing.

I love the Zune software. I love my Zune pass. I love my Zune. I love the fact that I can leave my Zune plugged into the power port in my vehicle and have it sync wirelessly so my content is always up to date in the morning when I get in.

Everyone is looking for apps. Glad you can get them on a phone, but you are leaving a huge market left untouched.

[DaveMac-MS]

Originally Posted by Icky6

What I mean is that the HD as a whole seems like a bit of a half-hearted effort on MS's part.. they didn't fund the team enough.

I think you're giving too fleeting a consideration to how expensive spinning up a team to develop a product like Zune HD really is - device, software, service, firmware, manufacturing, marketing, PR, etc... Not trying to cry poor - I'm always going to lose that argument , but bear in mind that Zune represents a MASSIVE investment by Microsoft in this space.

Also consider that there are many, many very satisfied users outside of this forum for whom the Zune HD does exactly what they need. You can always argue there should be more features or more functionality, but you have to draw the line somewhere. We did, and it turns out it was short of where you personally would like it to be. That's cool - we're pushing the line forward with each firmware release - but understand that a lot of folks are really happy with their device.

Originally Posted by Icky6

That's why I think things like an HDMI out directly on the device would have made the HD a genuine step above the competition, without a monthly fee attached to it. More people could have appreciated a feature like that, a unique feature that only the Zune HD provided.

See my earlier post about HDMI and the reasons we couldn't output directly.

Originally Posted by Technorace

When we look at the Zune HD and WP7 we don't see any big distinction between the two besides the fact that the phones have a cell radio. Can you tell us why the Zune HD can't run the WP7 OS? Can you tell us maybe after MIX after all the WP7 details come out?

Well, as this group is overly wont to do - you're deep diving into the specifics before the full picture is out. The fact that you don't see a big distinction between Zune HD and WP7S is only based on what was reported at MWC, right? Let's have more of the picture emerge and then discuss.

Cheers, Dave.

[JJohnson]

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the answer! I'm looking forward to the spring release, and I hope it arrives sooner rather than later!

James

[Icky6]

I think you're right, Dave, the Zune HD isn't the device for me. I hate to bash it when it is in fact a nice PMP, and I really appreciate your responses. But I think the HD doesn't do anything significantly better than an iPod Touch... it's very underwhelming.

[JJohnson]

I would respectfully disagree with you there, Icky6. When I show off the Zune HD to friends who have an iPod Touch, they're always impressed with the interface, the screen, the Zune Pass integration, the pins, etc. The only sticking point they have is apps. The guy in front of me at work got an iPod Touch solely because it had more apps.

I don't need many apps myself, and I love the Zune interface overall; my only request there would be a landscape mode throughout the entire interface and adding books to the menu for ebook/audiobook functionality from the start. If I asked for apps for Zune, all I'd really want would be an RSS reader, stocks, MS Money (or some other spending-tracking software), and movie times. That'd cover me.

The interface is just packaged better than the iPod touch in my opinion - from the pervasive use of album covers throughout the music view, to the way videos are presented, it's clean and well thought out. The iPod Touch is more...childlike the way it looks to me, like something designed 5-8 years ago. If you wish though, please do go grab an iPod Touch if that would make you happier and fulfill your needs better.