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  #1  
Old 12-27-2010, 06:21 PM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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Default RMAA Discussion for Clip+

Firstly i have been on this site as a member for a long time.
Mostly i just keep reading the inputs from the people on the site.
I find it a tad technical and not based on audiophile language like some other sites(am not naming them), which is to my liking given my technical background.
Question 1:
THD:

Stereo Crosstalk:

The pink and cyan lines indicate noise in the first diagram and in the second diagram they indicate a higher(?) crosstalk right.
So it is better to use a device with no load(?)
How do we connect a device with no load i mean there is always headphones needed to listen right so there is no sense of taking this test.
If by connecting an amp we are getting these results then it is useful to use a balanced amp like the arrow right?
If the amp really does provide no load then we do get better sound unlike what saratoga suggests(the amp does not really help) right?
Question 2:
Crosstalk:

My question is if this is the response with rockbox then we are getting a mixed crosstalk response from rockbox(?)
better in certain places (mids) and not so good in certain areas(bass and highs).
why is this?
Also for most of the rmaa tests have you used rockbox clip+ or normal clip+?

Sorry about the technical questions but i felt this is a good place to ask this question.

My Current Rig:
Sansa Fuze V2 Rockbox (updated to latest builds regularly waiting for usb support on v2ams)
Headphones:ep630(donated to sister)>Klipsch s4(good but lack clarity in instrument separation seriously not somethingi picked up, my own experience)>Phonak PFE 112(Very good have to pump the volume to listen to these)>Fischer Audio DBA-02(Very good I know you may look at me like i went with the (the other site) craze but they are really good, really good instrument separation i listen to some rock and trance where the dba really shines and the volume does not need to be pumped like the pfe can listen pretty well on -30 to -35 whereas the pfe need -20 to -25 i know it is less but these are the volumes i listen at normally when i am in the mood these values do go higher. With slower music i like all my headphones except the ep630 which frankly were my first set of headphones(not stock ones).

Am planning to buy two clip+ really no debate, i am going to buy them anyways but just for discussion.

Last edited by akbarhash; 12-27-2010 at 06:42 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2010, 03:39 PM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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bump...
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2010, 04:07 PM
rohit3192 rohit3192 is offline
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I trust my ears more than those Graphs.
Because in the end my listening pleasure matters, not some reports.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2010, 04:40 PM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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Listening pleasure matters but if there were no data, no graphs, no continuous improvement then the things would still sound like they did the day they were invented.
Science is all about observation and improving based on those observations.
So the reason why your j3 sounds so good, is because of the work put in by engineers and not people who were listening for pleasure(maybe them too but used just as test subjects).
So by achieving less crosstalk I will get the something some people may call airiness or something.(Not in any way implying that you don't have a technical background which in all probability you do)
So in the end graphs do matter and I trust them.
So I asked this question in my pursuit for better sound quality which is what you are after(i hope), so we are after the same thing the road we take is different.

Last edited by akbarhash; 12-29-2010 at 04:46 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2010, 04:55 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
The pink and cyan lines indicate noise in the first diagram and in the second diagram they indicate a higher(?) crosstalk right.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
So it is better to use a device with no load(?)
Yes, adding a load degrades performance. The larger the load, the more performance is degraded. The clip is exceptional in that the load has little impact on performance. With most other players the load and unloaded results are nothing alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
How do we connect a device with no load i mean there is always headphones needed to listen right so there is no sense of taking this test.
Correct. Well its slightly helpful if you're going to use your clip with an external amp or car stereo or whatever. But yes, unloaded results are mostly unimportant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
If by connecting an amp we are getting these results then it is useful to use a balanced amp like the arrow right?
'Balanced amplifiers' are a real thing, but they don't make sense in this context. I'd guess its just some audiophile nonsense that doesn't matter in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
If the amp really does provide no load then we do get better sound unlike what saratoga suggests(the amp does not really help) right?
Depends. Are you going to use the amp unloaded, or are you going to use headphones? If so, you'll get the loaded output of the amp times the unloaded output of the player, which may or may not be better then the loaded output of the player. Most likely it'll be no better though since the clip alone is very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
My question is if this is the response with rockbox then we are getting a mixed crosstalk response from rockbox(?)
better in certain places (mids) and not so good in certain areas(bass and highs).
why is this?
I've never understood that result. I suspect theres something else going on that RMAA is not detecting, since nothing in the software should change the crosstalk. Anyway, since both of those crosstalk results are very good, I would not worry about it. Differences in very small numbers tend to be unimportant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
Listening pleasure matters but if there were no data, no graphs, no continuous improvement then the things would still sound like they did the day they were invented.
Indeed. The only people who say they trust their ears are the ones who have never tried a real listening test, and thus don't realize how poor their own judgement really is.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2010, 05:02 PM
rohit3192 rohit3192 is offline
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Please take whatever I am saying is as a personal opinion of user.
For me music is somewhat subject rather than objective BUT sometimes people generally agree on things.
If you see people review not all report same experience.
Creative created X-Fi technology which most people think is a crap(so it is fail if end user does not like it ,how much technology Creative put in no matter).
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2010, 05:04 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rohit3192 View Post
For me music is somewhat subject rather than objective BUT sometimes people generally agree on things.
We're not talking about music, we're talking about MP3 players, and theres nothing subjective about those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohit3192 View Post
If you see people review not all report same experience.
All the smart ones do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohit3192 View Post
Creative created X-Fi technology which most people think is a crap(so it is fail if end user does not like it ,how much technology Creative put in no matter).
It is crap.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2010, 05:51 PM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post
Correct.
Depends. Are you going to use the amp unloaded, or are you going to use headphones? If so, you'll get the loaded output of the amp times the unloaded output of the player, which may or may not be better then the loaded output of the player. Most likely it'll be no better though since the clip alone is very good.
Thanks those were the exact words i was looking for. In the end to achieve better results the loaded output of the amp times the unloaded output of the player should be better than the loaded output of the player.

Ok now i am on my hunt to see if there is such an amp out there which does provide such an output.

Thanks for the response saratoga. Keep up the great work on rockbox. Will try to join. I also know a little bit of c c++.
Still waiting for dfkt response on whether he uses rockbox clip or OF clip for those rmaa tests.

Maybe dfkt can do a test like the above one with clip+ loaded with 16, 32 ohm and then the clip+ to arrow loaded 16, 32.

He did one here which is here clip+ 16 ohm load then headsix i guess.

Also weirdly the clip+ has better crosstalk with higher impedance phones.here.

Generally it is the opposite.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2010, 06:11 PM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rohit3192 View Post
Please take whatever I am saying is as a personal opinion of user.
For me music is somewhat subject rather than objective BUT sometimes people generally agree on things.
If you see people review not all report same experience.
Creative created X-Fi technology which most people think is a crap(so it is fail if end user does not like it ,how much technology Creative put in no matter).
See if the thing is really good then most people will agree without being influenced by pr bull*hit. Just look at the clip man its cheap it does its job of being a neutral player and giving an output faithful to the source. Then it is upto the user to then change it(or not) by using eq or by using any headphones with a signature he likes(maybe bass centric or more neutral). Its not rocket science.
I know about the X-Fi but have never heard it, if most people(according to you) think it is crap then it must be and it is the kind of thing that goes on a lot saying something is audiophile thing and selling it for exorbitant prices when actually no effort has gone into it.
I also read about this one thing were some hifi company was plainly re-branding stuff and selling it for 5 times the cost of the original and they didnt even bother to change anything just added some metal strip on the front. It was one of those receivers you use for home-theater I am not sure but i guess it was denon.
Just another food for thought. If the clip series (also including fuze and clip+) can give a good frequency response for under 100$ how difficult do you think it really is for certain companies to actually make a player that does it.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2010, 06:17 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
Thanks for the response saratoga. Keep up the great work on rockbox. Will try to join. I also know a little bit of c c++.
We're actually just plain c, nothing as hard as c++, so you're welcome to jump in if you want to work on things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
Also weirdly the clip+ has better crosstalk with higher impedance phones.
Higher impedance == lower load. So thats expected. Crosstalk gets worse as you have a higher load.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
Ok now i am on my hunt to see if there is such an amp out there which does provide such an output.
Any reason you're doing that? Adding an amp is mostly pointless.
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  #11  
Old 12-29-2010, 06:24 PM
skip252 skip252 is offline
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Quote:
Depends. Are you going to use the amp unloaded, or are you going to use headphones?
Lost me there. Aren't headphones needed to hear the results? From what I thought I understood that's what made the unloaded tests not especially relevant to real world performance. That the loaded tests more closely represented what occurred what the output was once headphones were connected.
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  #12  
Old 12-29-2010, 06:29 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
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Lost me there. Aren't headphones needed to hear the results?
Yes, it was a rhetorical question
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  #13  
Old 12-29-2010, 06:39 PM
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Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarhash View Post
Just another food for thought. If the clip series (also including fuze and clip+) can give a good frequency response for under 100$ how difficult do you think it really is for certain companies to actually make a player that does it.
Ask the guys who sell the HifiMan players.
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  #14  
Old 12-29-2010, 07:35 PM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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Will not be buying an amp anytime soon. It is there on the table for the future(maybe never end up buying one).

Thanks for clarifying my doubts.
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  #15  
Old 12-29-2010, 11:41 PM
JK98 JK98 is offline
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Sandisk doesn't issue separate numbers indicating how much they earn( or perhaps lose?) on their mp3 player business. I guess it makes sense for Sandisk to be in the low priced mp3 player business even if it earns little or has small losses, as it pressures other player makers to price their players low. Low priced players means much greater consumer demand and many more units sold, which creates much higher sales volumes for Sandisk's flash memory.

Support costs for mp3 players can be quite high. I never called Sandisk for Support. Is Sandisk's mp3 player support based in India?
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  #16  
Old 12-30-2010, 03:40 AM
akbarhash akbarhash is offline
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Don't know about the support. Never called them too. Thats what happens when you have a cheap player and a good online community behind it.
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