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  #101  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:16 PM
mikeaj mikeaj is offline
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Well, whatever you do regarding the comments spam is up to you. Personally, I agree with censorship to keep out the trash. It's just censoring constructive information and useful posts that leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

I think that the "music is not sine waves" argument bears some serious treatment though, like maybe a paragraph in the "testing methods" page or somewhere else. It's not always intuitive to everybody how the standard audio benchmarks relate to perceived audio quality. Also, we're dealing with systems that are mostly but not quite all linear.

In practice, you can fairly convincingly show that something does well in real music via audio differencing. Was that covered in an article? Of course if you're doing this to check an amp, the results will also be influenced by the DAC and ADC.


Hopefully the v1.1 board turns out all good.
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  #102  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:27 PM
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NwAvGuy, I think it would probably be best if you waited til you got the O2 sorted out before spending time making any big changes to your site (if you decide to) since I think more people are interested in getting a hold of the boards.

That said, something probably does need to be done if the streams of criticism and debate continue at the same rate. While the standards of moderation on a personal blog and what what purports to be an open "community" shouldn't necessarily be the same I think that given the nature of your criticisms of head-fi and the AMB forum you need to take some extra steps to avoid the even the appearance of impropriety or of being hypocritical and giving others another reason to criticize or be suspicious of your motives.

The appearance is the important part. While someone with a proper education in the field (like you) or even a layman who reads up on this stuff in their spare time (like me) can immediately spot an argument so silly it seems like its "obviously" a troll or just to stupid to spend time rebutting there are people who will seriously advance it and others who though simple ignorance (which is curable) or stupidity (which usually isn't...) may take it seriously or not spot the flaws in it. Someone who's new to this hobby is very likely to be ignorant of many relevant facts and may be easily taken in by fallacious arguments.

Those newbies are really the primary audience for such debates. A single exchange is unlikely to change the mind of anyone who has already holds a specific view but other people who are "on the fence" will likely read such an exchange at a later date and compare the evidence and arguments from each side.

If you "take on all comers" in an appropriate venue and address their criticisms and arguments it will help to give you the necessary credibility needed to bust myths that you mentioned in one of your articles. It helps to show that your position is without weakness because you are unafraid of what others may say against it. A reputation for blocking comments, even if you think you only block ones which are silly or troll-ish will cause the opposite perception among people who don't yet know enough to make the same judgment that you made.

Of course that might end up taking a lot of time all by itself. I got pretty burnt out trying to wage a one man crusade against fallacious arguments on Head-Fi's Sound Science. You'll probably have at least a slightly easier time since you're more knowledgeable on this topic than I am. There might be some sort of happy medium, like starting to compile all you answers to specific audiophool arguments TalkOrigins style or something and essentially using them as stock rebuttals. You could even keep your own archive of them and let them slowly grow into full articles on your blog or something.

With all the time you already put into your blog just to help others none of us are really in a position to tell you to do anything differently. Just take it as some advice about how other people will perceive your actions. I'd probably try and keep the comments completely open for everything but spam and enforcing "on-topic-ness" but sometimes I'm too much of an idealist...

Enough of my rambling. It might be best to get back to talking about the amp now.
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  #103  
Old 08-11-2011, 08:42 PM
Cain Cain is offline
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Well, IMHO moderating the comments that way would be just too much trouble. You are not trying to make a new headphone community to promote democratic discussion, one couldn't really call you hypocritical for trying to keep the comment section of your blog (not an entire forum) clean. That's common sense, it's a one man job, you can't compare it to head-fi.

If you really don't want to use censorship, just put insightful questions and their answers in either the main post (considering that, the way I see it, their main purpose is to provide useful information) or a new Q/A post and let the comment section run wild.

Addendum: @http://anythingbutipod.com/forum/showpost.php?p=568156&postcount=108

You would be superb staff for any community, you clearly have overwhelming amounts of common sense. Indeed, censorship should be avoided when managing a community, unless in case of spam. However, just like you said in the above post, you just can't compare a forum (in this case, head-fi) to a blog. It's too much work for just one guy. He shouldn't have to waste so much time managing a blog just because he designed an amp and criticized the policies of a famous forum.
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  #104  
Old 08-11-2011, 09:06 PM
odigg odigg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
He shouldn't have to waste so much time managing a blog just because he designed an amp and criticized the policies of a famous forum.
Yep. I agree. It's your blog and your time. You're not getting paid to write the blog. If you want to put comments in the trash than put posts in the trash. Don't think too much about it. Spend your time on things that are more valuable to you.

I don't think it's censorship or "going down to their level." I'm sure you've read academic journals. Do they let people post any random gibberish in a journal? Is it censorship when they reject an article if the study is based on faulty premises or uses a faulty method? It's not censorship because the whole point of a academic journal is to EDUCATE people about the work being done in the field. It's not an outlet for whomever thinks they have a right to say something.

Your site is the same way. It's there to educate people. So feel free to keep the gibberish out. Occasionally you'll block a comment that is genuine. Such is the nature of the false negative.

If people really want to criticize you without any moderation - maybe they can make a blog for that
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  #105  
Old 08-12-2011, 01:36 AM
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Just took my new multimeter & soldering station for a test run last night and I'm now offcially ready for the O2 kits

Last edited by Sorensiim; 08-12-2011 at 01:47 AM.
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  #106  
Old 08-12-2011, 02:59 AM
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I kinda agree with Maverick on this one - to champion objectivism and slap faces at subjectivist HQ, criticize how that administration censors posts, and then censor posts yourself is more than just slightly hypocritical, regardless of motives.

You shouldn't have to worry though, I'm sure most of your readers can help address any attempts at trolling. Only remove posts that seek to repeat old and tired arguments that have already been refuted, so as to keep the comments section from growing too long.
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  #107  
Old 08-12-2011, 03:07 AM
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Thanks. It seems, like me, several here are rather divided on the censorship issue. Slightly more have said "go ahead and censor" but it's obviously a controversial topic. I'll see how things go. I haven't had to censor any further posts this afternoon or evening.

The new V1.1 PCB is soldered up and working. I'm glad I waited to release the artwork as I did find a few minor issues--one having to do with lead spacing and another with component clearance.

I haven't yet put it on the dScope but that should happen soon. Once I verified there was no DC at the output, it was drawing normal amounts of current, not oscillating, etc. I plugged the HD650's in and it sounds just as amazing as the last version so far. But I'm really curious to see if the numbers are similar, better, or (hopefully not) worse.
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  #108  
Old 08-12-2011, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NwAvGuy View Post
Thanks. It seems, like me, several here are rather divided on the censorship issue. Slightly more have said "go ahead and censor" but it's obviously a controversial topic. I'll see how things go. I haven't had to censor any further posts this afternoon or evening.
It puzzles me why you don't just set up your blog to require a google account to log in, like Strobist or other high-traffic Blogger sites. That should keep most trolls in check

Quote:
Originally Posted by NwAvGuy View Post
The new V1.1 PCB is soldered up and working. I'm glad I waited to release the artwork as I did find a few minor issues--one having to do with lead spacing and another with component clearance.

I haven't yet put it on the dScope but that should happen soon. Once I verified there was no DC at the output, it was drawing normal amounts of current, not oscillating, etc. I plugged the HD650's in and it sounds just as amazing as the last version so far. But I'm really curious to see if the numbers are similar, better, or (hopefully not) worse.
My HD650's are cheering wildly, waiting to try on the O2!
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  #109  
Old 08-12-2011, 05:12 AM
Beduin Beduin is offline
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i got a pair of HD650`s too, waiting for the O2 board. I guess this will sell in thousands and thousands , and be the reference headphoneamplifer for a lot of people.
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  #110  
Old 08-12-2011, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beduin View Post
i got a pair of HD650`s too, waiting for the O2 board. I guess this will sell in thousands and thousands , and be the reference headphoneamplifer for a lot of people.
Spot on.

"What does your $600 amp do that my $30 amp doesnt?"

Can't wait to actually hear the O2. Spec sheets and measurements can only give you a hint about how it might sound, the only way to find out how it actually sounds is to listen to it for yourself.
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  #111  
Old 08-12-2011, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorensiim View Post
Can't wait to actually hear the O2. Spec sheets and measurements can only give you a hint about how it might sound, the only way to find out how it actually sounds is to listen to it for yourself.
Don't you mean how your headphones really sound?
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  #112  
Old 08-12-2011, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
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Don't you mean how your headphones really sound?
Yep - Hopefully!
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  #113  
Old 08-12-2011, 08:28 AM
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I wouldn't worry too much either.
You can be easily reached on a number of forums so anyone who seriously wants to discuss something that is not directly related to your articles or foolish enough to get trashed can start a thread or PM you directly.
Forums are more suitable for discussions anyway than the comment area on your blog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NwAvGuy View Post
But I'm really curious to see if the numbers are similar, better, or (hopefully not) worse.
Me too.
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  #114  
Old 08-12-2011, 08:52 AM
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I think these will sell - and even become popular in audiophile circles - but in the end, people like to have paid big bucks for "reference grade" equipment. Sadly, we're going to see many people who will praise the O2 for its low cost, but also fault it in a way that "isn't measurable by conventional means."

The above is ironic because, of course, "reference grade" implies measured performance.

On an awesome note, grats on the board and can't wait for the graphs!
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  #115  
Old 08-12-2011, 09:26 AM
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Thanks for all the positive comments everyone. As for "reference grade" I have to say unless someone packages the O2 in a big heavy chassis, with an internal power supply, massively thick front panel, huge solid metal volume knob, etc. it won't every seem "reference grade" to many audiophiles. And, to be fair, I can understand that. There's something to be said both for build quality and aesthetics.

It's also possible to better the O2's performance on the test bench with a more costly design. But I'm not sure that matters in the real world. At least with everything I know about audio and headphones, the O2 is already well past the point of diminishing returns in every area that matters in an audible way.

And, it's worth noting, the O2 could use a bit more "polish" in some areas. It's limited in features, lacks a headphone relay to prevent turn on/off noises, etc. Keeping the price down, the size small, and allowing battery operation with respectable run-time does require some compromises. But, hopefully with the O2, sound quality won't prove to be one of them.

If your benchmark is a blind listening test with real music and real headphones, I suspect the O2 will hold its own nicely against "reference" gear. But, except for my DAC1's headphone amp, those tests have yet to be run. I hope to be running more blind comparisons.

Just like the measurements, I'm sure some will discredit the blind tests to help justify their more expensive gear. But they should be careful or they might find themselves wearing headphones plugged into an ABX box with an O2 sitting next to it someday!
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  #116  
Old 08-12-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NwAvGuy View Post
There's something to be said both for build quality and aesthetics.
Very true. As we all know, the listening experience isn't only based on, well, listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NwAvGuy View Post
And, it's worth noting, the O2 could use a bit more "polish" in some areas. It's limited in features, lacks a headphone relay to prevent turn on/off noises, etc.
True that many would appreciate a bass boost on a portable amp. Also, this worries me now, what kind of spike should we expect when we turn the amp on and off? Certainly not the kind of DC that came out of the Asgard, but power cycling should ideally be silent. It just adds to that effortlessness that people dig, myself included.

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But they should be careful or they might find themselves wearing headphones plugged into an ABX box with an O2 sitting next to it someday!
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  #117  
Old 08-12-2011, 10:03 AM
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I don’t want anyone to freq out but this thread has gotten off topic on various levels and we will be working on purging most of the off-topic posts. With that said, I urge members to stay on topic ...
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  #118  
Old 08-12-2011, 11:29 AM
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V1.1 UPDATE - I received the new bare V1.1 PC boards yesterday (8/11), built up a new O2, and I've now completed some of the more critical dScope tests and can say the performance so far is very similar to the previous version at the low gain (3X/10 dB) setting. I haven't tested the high gain setting yet.

I'm pleased the addition of the gain switch, 1/8 watt resistors, and new PC board layout seem to work just fine so far and haven't compromised the performance. I was kind of hoping for even better performance than before due to my attempts to further improve the board layout. But I suspect the performance was already close to the limits of what these components can do on an 80 x 100mm board.

I'll be updating some of the graphs/measurements in the first article and I may post a couple of V1.0 vs V1.1 graphs in probably the second (design) article for anyone who's curious.

I did find a couple minor "mechanical" issues with the PC board. One is due to formed leads on a capacitor (lead spacing) and the other is a component clearance issue. So it's a good thing I didn't release the PC board layout earlier. It's also good both are easily fixed without needing another prototype board.

If any of you are wanting to order parts from Mouser it's best to wait until I publish a revised documentation package (the PDF and spreadsheet). I also will try to make some improvements to the PDF as some have had some issues with it.

I've added some additional construction tips, tools required, etc. to this article in the Construction section that might be especially helpful to novice DIYers.

Finally, I need to regenerate all the documentation along with the PC board files after double checking my work, the latest changes, etc. I'll try to get it all done and published before the end of the weekend if I can.
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  #119  
Old 08-12-2011, 11:44 AM
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Awesome news! I remember reading somewhere that a certain component was on backorder for a long time. Did you replace it?
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  #120  
Old 08-12-2011, 12:27 PM
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There's nothing back ordered that doesn't have an in-stock substitute listed (and only 1 or 2 of those). I'll re-check the parts list against Mouser before publishing the new version to make sure.
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