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  #21  
Old 03-28-2012, 04:38 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
I've used -V0 before and don't like it so I threw away the idea.
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also I'm too lazy to do most of these ABX stuff
Ergo, you have no idea which you like better (or if you even like one better then the other).

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Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
As for 400VBR,its fine because its already only staying in the near 400 bitrate range. -V0 doesn't work well for all music,therefore I go for something that I'll be content with. It may seem silly to you but I prefer a simple 3 step system and not have to worry about bad sound quality in the end.
It seems silly because its really dumb. You're assuming that more bitrate gives you more quality when in fact at V0 you're basically already telling the encoder to use whatever bitrate is needed for best quality. Take those 320CBR files and process them with mp3repacker, which just squeezes dead space out of CBR mp3 files. You'll get basically a V0 bitrate VBR file once it removes all the padding you told the encoder to add to get a 320CBR file.

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Glad I'm not the only one who notices the soundstage difference.
Do you even know what soundstage is? It sounds like you do not.
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  #22  
Old 03-28-2012, 04:52 PM
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Do you even know what soundstage is? It sounds like you do not.
Yes,its the reason I don't like -V0 files,at least for some of my music.

Last I remember soundstage is what separates all the different instruments and vocals going throughout a song.If a pair of headphones can separate all of those things and make you able to feel like you're in the recording studio,then that pair does have good soundstage or as most call it a wide soundstage. The smaller the soundstage is the more everything is squished together and sounds like one big mess going into your ears. At least I've learned this much so far from ABi since I've been here.
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  #23  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:02 PM
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lol I haven't even listened to FLAC in at least a year I just move them all to my external hard drive for an archive.
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  #24  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:09 PM
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lol I just delete majority of mine after converting them,except some that I REALLY like and want to keep.

I only have a 500GB hard drive inside my laptop,which is already packed with 40.5GB of a mixture of audio files,I don't want to waste more space with FLAC files. Majority of it is already taken up by video files alone lol
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  #25  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
lol I just delete majority of mine after converting them,except some that I REALLY like and want to keep.

I only have a 500GB hard drive inside my laptop,which is already packed with 40.5GB of a mixture of audio files,I don't want to waste more space with FLAC files. Majority of it is already taken up by video files alone lol
I only have a 250GB hard drive . But my collection is relatively small....here is a snapshot of the properties of my entire collection in foobar2000, about 1660 songs I think:

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  #26  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
Yes,its the reason I don't like -V0 files,at least for some of my music.

Last I remember soundstage is what separates all the different instruments and vocals going throughout a song.If a pair of headphones can separate all of those things and make you able to feel like you're in the recording studio,then that pair does have good soundstage or as most call it a wide soundstage. The smaller the soundstage is the more everything is squished together and sounds like one big mess going into your ears.
With typical music, I doubt you will hear a difference if only you would ABX either through headphones or loudspeakers. If you believe MP3s produce a lessening of the soundstage—I do not think it does—it should be very easy for you to hear this difference in soundstage in an ABX test.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:55 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
Last I remember soundstage is what separates all the different instruments and vocals going throughout a song.If a pair of headphones can separate all of those things and make you able to feel like you're in the recording studio,then that pair does have good soundstage or as most call it a wide soundstage. The smaller the soundstage is the more everything is squished together and sounds like one big mess going into your ears. At least I've learned this much so far from ABi since I've been here.
If you say that your definition of what a word describing a sound is that its what something sounds like, then you haven't said anything at all.

Generally when someone listens to two samples, and one actually sounds better then the other, they can give a specific description of how it sounds better. Usually when someone cannot say how two things sound different it is because they cannot actually discern any difference and are either imagining it or unwilling to admit they don't know.

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Yes,its the reason I don't like -V0 files,at least for some of my music.
As far as I can tell, your concept of 'soundstage' is just another word for 'bitrate'. You dislike V0 files because they have about 50kbps less of soundstage then 320CBR files. That would be fine if bitrate had something to do with how things actually sounded, but stuffing more zeros into a frame to hit some arbitrary file size doesn't actually make something sound better or worse.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2012, 08:02 PM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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I just convert ripped FLAC files to 400kbps AAC for my DAPs and thats it,also I'm too lazy to do most of these ABX stuff,and I don't really care much about the space being used much lol
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Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
I only have a 500GB hard drive inside my laptop,which is already packed with 40.5GB of a mixture of audio files,I don't want to waste more space with FLAC files. Majority of it is already taken up by video files alone lol
So the reason you can't be bothered to understand what you're talking about is that you don't care about space, but the reason you insist on doing something stupid is that you care a lot about saving space.
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  #29  
Old 03-28-2012, 08:40 PM
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So the reason you can't be bothered to understand what you're talking about is that you don't care about space, but the reason you insist on doing something stupid is that you care a lot about saving space.
Correction,I don't care about saving small bits of space that albums take up. I'm more concerned about video files that take up WAY more space.

I simply like knowing the info on my music isn't compressed alot. 320Kbps files have a compression percentage of 78%, -V0 files have one of between 82% and 84% and lastly 400kbps AAC files have one of 72%. I choose the one thats compressed the least.But I don't want anything bigger than 400kbps because its useless to me,therefore I don't use Vorbis.
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2012, 09:20 PM
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Some comments:

Despite occasionally being able to ABX the difference I've never heard any difference in sound stage. Even with the HD 650's.

AAC was specifically designed to achieve transparent results at lower bit rates than mp3 making 400 kbps AAC beyond insane. A more sane insane choice would be q9 vorbis or 320 CBR mp3 I would think. :P

The compression rate doesn't really mean anything since most of the stuff being thrown away doesn't matter much (that's the whole idea).

Of course you can know which one you prefer even if your choice may not be backed up by ABX tests. What rediculous rehtoric.
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  #31  
Old 03-28-2012, 09:41 PM
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Well all of my music is already converted and I don't want to bother with getting all those CDs again and reconverting them,so I'm fine with my choices.
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  #32  
Old 03-29-2012, 12:19 AM
saratoga saratoga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
Correction,I don't care about saving small bits of space that albums take up. I'm more concerned about video files that take up WAY more space.
Then you should be leaving the files as FLAC, given that:

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Originally Posted by Lagoo56 View Post
I'd rather go for insane guaranteed quality and not have to think about whether the end converted result will be good enough
Indeed, given what you have said, 320 CBR is not a good choice for you.

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I simply like knowing the info on my music isn't compressed alot. 320Kbps files have a compression percentage of 78%, -V0 files have one of between 82% and 84%
Two basic mistakes here:

1) As I said before, you're incorrectly assuming that the space you're giving those 320kbps files is actually being used for audio. I recommend you try repacking those mp3 files. You'll find that the actual audio data is much smaller.

2) You're incorrectly assuming that higher compression gives worse quality.
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  #33  
Old 03-29-2012, 01:49 AM
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With razorlame I ripped, using the latest lame codec, some killer and some of my most favorite uncompressed wav tracks to 320kbps cbr mp3 with a lowpass filter of 16khZ. Not only could I not ABX the tracks successfully but I couldn't hear a difference using the placebo effect and the audio graphs matched almost perfectly (I use adobe audition) except that the mp3 was cut off at 16khz.

Doing a lowpass filter at 16khz allows those extra bits that normally would be used for the 16-19khz range to fill in the 0 to 16khz range resulting in a more transparent file than a standard 320kbps mp3 file alone.

Many quality headphones can't go higher than 16khz and many people can't hear much above 16khz anyway as the reason why I chose that level.

This is the reason I can live without flac on a sony player but not gapless for mp3. To me gapless is a must in mp3 format. It suits all my concert music while using a small fraction of the space a wav file would use.


With that said, I failed to abx even regular 224kbps mp3 files.
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  #34  
Old 03-29-2012, 02:34 AM
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Why mess with the carefully tuned, quality based LAME presets by using CBR 320 and a lowpass filter? I'd just encode to -V0 using LAME. The developers have already taken in to account what's needed to produce the best quality encodes without the addition of any custom switches.

In fact using CBR causes LAME to use lower quality settings.
Code:
VBR
Encoding settings: -m j -V 0 -q 0 -lowpass 22.1 --vbr-new -b 32
Code:
CBR
Encoding settings: -m j -V 4 -q 3 -lowpass 20.5
That would only be after I had ABXed and determined that I needed a setting that high to reach transparency. Despite what some are saying here it's highly unlikely that going with the recommended settings will produce a level of artifacts that will be detected under normal circumstances.
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  #35  
Old 03-29-2012, 08:59 AM
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In addition to this thread: http://anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62075

As found in the link above, my stand is that anything starting 192kbps is fine by me to me (YMMV); I could only notice a very small change in high frequencies on my ABX test between 192 and FLAC, but even that took a LOT of concentration to point out. At 160kbps it was more obvious.
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  #36  
Old 03-29-2012, 03:56 PM
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Everyone has valid points here, and for Lagoo56, if you're going that high with AACs, you might as well just use lossless . AAC is designed to achieve transparency at lower bitrates (<192), not 400kbps.
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  #37  
Old 03-29-2012, 04:07 PM
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A lot has been thrown at this sticky that is meant to educate rather than argue. That said arguing and debating is all good but the intention of this thread was somewhere we could recommend the new members to read every time this subject comes up. Currently Enigmatic is working on additional information to add to the first post and once we feel good with it, this thread will be cleaned up. For the time being keep on with your discussions they won't be deleted (unless it's flaming) but rather moved to a discussion thread once the time comes. Finally I've got to say that one really needs to test for themselves, it's not hard to do and can really open your eyes to what you can and can not hear. I have and that's why I don't use FLAC on portable players, then I never did from the start but at least I confirmed what I thought.
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  #38  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:47 PM
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I didn't expect an entire debate to start over all of this,but anyways I don't like trivial debates so I'm not gonna add anymore to it. Now lets just enjoy music please.
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  #39  
Old 03-29-2012, 06:44 PM
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I don’t see anything inherently wrong with any post, this is why we discussed moving things to a debate/discussion thread rather than deleting stuff. But I certainly do not think this is trivial either, rather educational if you think about it …
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  #40  
Old 03-29-2012, 07:05 PM
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Arguments like this are bit tiresome though since they're endlessly rehashed, and of course the kind of people who bring them up are precisely the kind of people who do not care enough to do research or read a sticky.

I don't know that we should do the HA thing and require that people post ABX logs when complaining about audio codecs, but maybe a policy of politely linking people to a FAQ or sticky and then asking them not to claim what they can hear without proper blind listening tests would make sense? Its probably more friendly to new and casual readers then arguing with them anyway.
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